As you can see on the Manifesto, all are declared as "bulgarian". But in the upper left corner you can read "MACEDONIANS" in the same handwritting as the rest of the text in the Manifesto.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3985 ... ed18xa.gif
ellisisland


The same goes for this Manifesto it follows the same pattern..... so far so good..... they are all "Bulgarians"... We can easily dismiss the note in the upper left corner..... it must be somekind of speculation by the IMMIGRATION OFFICER... or is it not....

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1887 ... ed23id.gif
ellisisland


Then again the IMMIGRATION OFFICER seems to know what people he is dealing with because the same pattern is here, on a Manifesto with German and Dutch immigrants.... they are stated as GERMAN resp. DUTCH... and see and behold... he even writes this in the upper left corner....
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8062 ... tch5ck.gif
ellisisland


The same goes for these Russian Poles...... the same pattern is found here.....
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8113 ... les9vu.gif
ellisisland


The IMMIGRATION OFFICER obviously knew their ethnicity but could not write this under the cathegory "RACE OR PEOPLE", he could only use the stated races in this ship manifesto:

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6749 ... ces7lu.gif
ellisisland

But he made a note in the upper left corner about the ethnicity of the immigrants.

So my conclusion is there are even more Macedonians hiding under "Bulgarian", "Servian" and "Greek" ethnicity.... you must really go thru the original Manifestos to find this information........

There you have another 60 Macedonians...... :wink:

All of the immigrants were on the same ship, so they met the same IMMIGRATION OFFICER....... the ship is SS Furnessia and it departured from Glasgow 2nd March 1907 and arrived to New York 13th March 1907.

as i said, we all should focus on immigration records and elis island data base. those data, when presented, imidiately puts hostile propaganda claims to the end. i thank istor so much (because i know he reads the forum) that show me the link to elis island data base. :)

I agree with you nitkov, you(plural) should stay focus in the Immigrations Records

what a funny guy,
do u acctually think that ur irony and sarcasm touch anybody in here?
all u can do is watch immigration records and cry. there were, there are and there will always be the macedonians. ship manifesto try is, at least, laughable. it only matters what passanger stated about racial belongings and the best thing is that u are aware of it. :)

Why are you say that I make a sarcasm?
I just say that you said. Immigrations Records!!!

As I told Istor way back then when he presented us to this database.... YOU ARE TO DUMB FOR YOUR OWN GOOD ISTOR.... look how it turned out..... it is in your favour now.... NOT!!!!!!


I have dug up about ~100 Manifestos were you can clearly see that the immigrants stated to be MACEDONIANS... on some they are changed to "bulgarian", "servian" and "greek"..... still the Macedonian text is there.... they did not have tipex back in thoose days... so it would have been a lot of work to write the whole thing again..... this is the beauty of it all..... go to the Manifestos... the database may LIE to you... if you see a immigrant stating to be "bulgarian"... that may not be the truth... on the Manifesto you may read MACEDONIAN overwritten with "Bulgarian".... the person who put the data in the database did not care to much of what it said so he/she/it inserted the information as they thought to be proper.....

can u just leave a links to all (or at least some) those manifestos that have rewritten statements of racial belonging(macedonians into bulgarians). it would be usefull.

akritas,
empty talk is all what u have. please continue, its funny to read ur comments that are unconnected to the thread.

You see nitkov agree with you for a second time today.
Empty talks with empty minds like yours

wow,
u got me now dude. :oops:

u know whats the difference beetween me and u? my mind may be empty, but at least, i have it. :lol:

but problem (for u) still remains. statements of passangers about their racial belongings. all u can do about it is to complain to the board of water suply copmany of the thessaloniki. cheers

On the ship the SS PRETORIA saling from HAMBURG on the 1 of November 1907, there were a couple of people who REALLY WERE NOT BULGARIAN...... look here...

0028. Traiko, Costa F 19y S Turkey, Bulgarian Perlepe, Turkey E. LISTED AS BULGARIAN IN THE DATABASE INFACT MACEDONIAN
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/3000/per015ly.gif


0030. Georgeff, Dines M 20y S Turkey, Macedonian Ostrowo, Turkey E.
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/4319/per024hp.gif


0006. Ilo, Stefan M 17y S Turkey, Bulgarian Perlepe, Turkey E. LISTED AS BULGARIAN IN THE DATABASE INFACT MACEDONIAN
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/5996/per035qy.gif


0011. Zdraveff, Alekse M 38y M Turkey, Bulgarian Perlepe, Turkey E. LISTED AS BULGARIAN IN THE DATABASE INFACT MACEDONIAN
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/3593/per049ss.gif


0013. Petko, Nadelko M 17y S Turkey, Bulgarian Perlepe, Turkey E. LISTED AS BULGARIAN IN THE DATABASE INFACT MACEDONIAN
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/9336/per054gm.gif


As I have said before... Im going thru many Manifestos... there are many like the exampleas I am giving above...... Would you like some more bosnian?

nobody have ever denied that some macedonians declared as bulgarians. as some declared as serbs. as some declared as greeks. it was common case that brothers from the same family in the same time were, serb, bulgarian and greek, depending what shcool they were attendind.
all because foreign propaganda of neighboring states through their national churches and educational institutions. but majority remained macedonians.
please, dont bother us with stupidities. altough i am pretty sure i am asking impossible, at least try to write something that worths reading and responding.

would u be so kind to come back at "how greek was macedonia in 1820s?" thread in balcan dialogue subforum? :roll:

I just wanted to say a few words on the use of the name 'Macedonia'.

I think the name can be said on the whole, to have been brought about by local usage by the Macedonians themselves.

Popular usage of the name 'Macedonia' had no influence in official circles, in Macedonia, because there were no official circles to sanction the name; none that were recognised internationally; the Macedonians themselves were almost all illiterate and one of the poorest nations in Europe.

Hope that her neighbours, who managed to develop sustainable officialdom earlier, would support the Macedonians was not a reality. The early years of the new Greek State was marked by no opposition to the usage of the name Macedonia. In 1870 there was an official policy shift in Greece on the use of that name. By the time the Macedonians had the resources to battle their way to freedom, Greece and Bulgaria policy was set against it.

This policy also gave Greece and Bulgaria the adavantage, because it was able to put a case against the largely illiterate Macedonians, in international circles, and the Macedonians had no voice, anywhere, neither at home or abroad to defend their case. In a strange twist this 'absence' of Macedonian officialdom at home and abroad was exploited, made to appear as determinate proof of an ambivalent identity crisis, which persists to this day.

Poverty played its part, but neighbour's meddling in Macedonian affairs at pivotal moments in the early stages of armed struggle, was very damaging to the seedling State.

In any case popular usage of the name 'Macedonia' was not enough to gain any sustainable officialdom, either in Macedonia or abroad, not from want of trying, because her neighbours made it a policy priority to prevent that from happening.

P.

An excellent summary of the truth.