We all know that this uprising is portrayed as Bulgarian, but let us see some independant accounts from New York Times.
I found it interesting that, independent Journalists who were in the Region talked about Macedonians and Bulgarians. and sometimes the Bulgars showed their true face too.

You can download the files in order to enlarge them and to read them better.
This articles were copied from the Micro film which was made availble by my good friend, great Macedonian.
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here you can read about how the Bulgars arested Macedonian Revolutionaries, dispaching the resolution to suppress the VMRO.


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Talking about Bulgarians, they are good liars, but put under preasure, they sometime give some interesting infos. Here you can read that the Ilinden was entierly national Macedonian movment organized by VMRO and Bulgars had nothing to do with the Organization of Ilinden.




I will just say that this is not the only one. in the Macedonian Knot, by Hans Lothar Steppan, we read that Bulgarian Ambasador in Cetine, Montenegro, was questioned by the German Ambasador, and was asked if it is true the accusation of some Serb News Paper where the Bulgarians in Macedonia kill Serb Teachers. This was in 1890.
On this the Bulgar was persistive to convince the German that:
This People are not Bulgarians, but work under cover telling that they are. But the Bulgarians have nothing to do with this murderers.

The Author concludes: "If this people were Greeks, the Bulgar would not hesitate to name them as Greeks, so they weren`t, Serbs were they not too. As the Bulgar Ambasador said, they are not Bulgarians, so they must have been Macedonians, since such Political murders were done by VMRO.


I say Bulgar under preasure is good Bulgar :wink:
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this two links are one article about the Macedonians. we were not able to make one entire copy from the whole article.






Imagine, there are clear differentiations between Bulgarians and Macedonians. and note the Autor was there, and talked with Macedonians.

one man told him story, and stated, "Im Macedonian engineer."
If this is not in National sense, please tell me if there is any Tessalian who say Im Tessalian engineer instead of Im Greek ingeneer.


pay attention that the Bulgars were trieing to suppress the VMRO and not to suport them.


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once again what did the Macedonians wanted, and pay attention they are described as: The Macedonians, hardy race of farmers and laberors....



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What were the Plans of the who, the Macedonians, :
pay attention, the guy was there, and talked to them, so if they were Bulgarians, they would be named the Bulgarians :wink: or Bulgarians from Macedonia....


:wink:

Interesting is the fact that reports are given by Journalists who were reporting or re-reporting from Sofia Bulgaria.


and many ask what was before 1900. here is something that I translated from German from the Hans Lothar Steppan the Macedonian Knot, edited by Stevov.


Pay attention that this is from 1900.

(Pages 101 to 103 from the book “The Macedonian Knot” by Hans Lothar-Steppan)




A Bulgarian document dated 1900 was discovered in Germany which is of immense importance for Macedonia.

According to Hans Lothar-Steppan, in December 1909 the German Ambassador to Serbia came across a document which he forwarded to his Department of Foreign Affairs. The document, dated 1900, was a report the Bulgarian Government had sent to their Bulgarian representative in Belgrade, Serbia. The report detailed Serbian activities with regard to disseminating “stimulation for division” information in the Serbian sphere on influence inside Macedonia. In other words, the Bulgarians were concerned about Serbia’s approach to informing the Macedonian people regarding the partitioning their country.

In part, the report reads as follows:

“We have indisputable evidence from events that have occurred in the last few years that a vast majority of the Christian population in Macedonia will greet the division of Macedonia with hostility. Their own desires are very simple, they want:

1. Guarantees for their personal security,
2. Private property rights,
3. The right of freedom so that they can live in peace and run their own affairs in peace, and
4. Enjoy their rights as equal citizens of the Ottoman State in accordance with international treaties and the laws of the Ottoman Empire.

Any attempt at division will cause great dissatisfaction among the Macedonians which will not only bring diplomatically damaging repercussions for us inside Macedonia but will disturb the entire peace in the Balkans and may provoke conflicts that will spill over into Bulgaria as well as into Serbia.

A few years ago, when we posed the question of division in our sphere of influence, we experienced protests and hostilities from the Macedonian people. They adamantly fought against any division of Macedonia and insisted that they did not want to be under anyone’s guardianship or tutelage.
The idea of self-determination in a separate state has become very popular very quickly among the Macedonian people and any attempts for kinship with other Balkan States will be met with resistance.”

This is a rare text which has preserved the idea that the Macedonian people were not just simply victims of their aggressive neighbours but hints that there was a certain negotiation between them.

We are left with the impression that the Macedonian people were simply the object of imperial greed, victims of their Christian neighbours, a tragedy of history, but seventy-eight years later, after their county was partitioned, even as a small part of what they were, they again appear as Macedonians.

Every sentence in the above text expresses the Macedonian sentiment of the time:

1. The hostility of the Macedonian people against any division,
2. The desire for self-determination under the name Macedonia was manifested even before 1900,
3. Any attempts at dividing Macedonia would provoke the greatest dissatisfaction and conflict,
4. No peace and stability for Bulgaria or Serbia, and
5. The refusal of Macedonians into any kind of kinship with any of the Balkan States.

This document, without a doubt, is clear evidence of Macedonian desire for self- determination.

NOTES of interest:

1. Even though it was well known to all the Balkan nations that the Macedonians harboured desires for independence and had no desires to be annexed by Greece, Bulgaria or Serbia, their Christian brothers the Greeks, Bulgarian and Serbians took them from one servitude to another. It was their plan all along to liberate them from the Ottomans and subjugate them, forcing them to vanish from history.

What is worse is that they almost succeeded were it not for the “spirit of time” and that the world no longer lives in “imperial times” but in times of human and minority rights. Unfortunately, the same States who didn’t hesitate to partition Macedonia in the first place still follow the Turkish Rules of deception which they learned very well and to this day are practicing them on European Governments and World institutions.

Case and point: Greece is well versed with history yet it doesn’t hesitate to play the role of a victim when it comes to the Macedonian question, accusing the Macedonians of stealing their State, State name, and State symbols!

Even in the 21st century, the same actors, to this day, still tell the same lies plotting and scheming against the Macedonians. They do this with contempt for international law which demonstrates to the democratic powers in the West, specifically the United Nations and the European Union of how weak their executive power is, when it comes to enforcing western standards and values. Isn’t it time they put an end to this?

2. People born from such a disadvantage feel tragically powerless; beaten down by history and robbed of their quality and innocence.
Imagine if this Bulgarian document became available to the world not in 1909 but in 1900 when it was written and if the world knew the Macedonian peoples’ desire for freedom and independence. Would the West, Europe and Russia have reacted differently? Would the Illinden uprising of 1903 been supported and would it have succeeded?

Most certainly the Macedonian people would have risen and regained their ethnic territory with its old ethnic borders in which they lived for at least fourteen hundred years. The Macedonian question would have been settled peacefully. The Balkan wars of 1912 and 1913 with all their injustices would not have taken place and would not have provoked new injustices. The Macedonian people would have achieved their total independence much earlier and would not have had to wait until 1989/90 to achieve only partial independence.

Unfortunately, this history cares not for rights and laws much less for Justice.
Bulgarians, Greeks and Albanians have written history in their own nationalistic and egoistic interests, which is not right. Only through Western Power intervention can the falsification of history be rectified and the damage done be repaired.

3. The words, as they were written in the Bulgarian document in 1900, hold true today as they did then and that is Macedonians want:

1. Guarantees for their personal security,
2. Private property rights,
3. The right of freedom so that they can live in peace and run their own affairs in peace, and
4. Enjoy their rights as equal citizens in their own State in accordance with international treaties and the world laws.

Macedonians of the early 20th century possessed the wisdom to desire peace, not conquest, and to live free in their own homeland. Today’s Macedonians, in the author’s opinion still want the same things.

The Macedonians are the only people in the Balkans who have learned their lessons from centuries of servitude to power-thirsty imperialists and who have no intention of repeating 19th and 20th century practices in the 21st century.

Should the Balkan experts wish to correct the problems in the Balkans they must first start by righting the past wrongs. They must give the Macedonians consideration for what they stand for and for their high moral qualities.

In response to the statement that Macedonians hate the Moslems for the five-hundred years of Ottoman occupation, which some believe ignited the war in Bosnia, Chris Voss writes, in his opinion this hate “is present less in Macedonia because of the long tradition of ethnic tolerance and because of the apparently lower ‘ecumenical identity’ than with Orthodox neighbours Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria.”

Macedonian tolerance was the same then as it is now in the 21st century both inside and outside of the Republic of Macedonia.
As the old saying goes; even the best behaved man cannot live in peace if his neighbour is evil.

So the real question is; should the European Union continue to turn a blind eye to untruths and injustices or do something about it to remove them?

ups I post it twice............

Bravo MK.

I will second that Bravo!! Excellent find brate, and a very useful counter-argument to the Bulgaristic views of most British papers during that time.

What an excellent post MK - excellent post.

MM

Bravo mk!!
Alal da ti e, i na tvojot drugar! :wink:

"The Macedonians, a hardy race of farmers and labourers, do not ask independence, but autonomy-the right to rule themselves, to have a voice in there own goverment. In this age of self-goverment surely they are but asking for there own." New york Times 1903

Something all Greeks and Bulgarians must understand, Macedonians wants there own, nothing more, nothing less, and we don't like other people taking it from us.

thank you all, but at first place would like to thank my friend, who made the Micro Films available.

We are on to other stuff now, when we will be ready, will post it for you here.

There is much of material available through out the libraries, but one have to bring much of patiente to go through it....

since our hoby is to talk about our history, we decidet to just go through the Micro Filmsand see what was happening, and there it is

Macedonia for the Macedonians


Pozdrav

MK, your find has inspired me to search my university's library micro-film system and, sure enough, there are MANY articles that were published in the New York Times during this era. I read through a few when I had some extra time, like the ones that you posted here, and was amazed with what I was reading. "Macedonia for the Macedonians" and the stroy about the hero who raised the Macedonian Revolutionary Flag with the Lion on it which had the quote "Freedom or Death" on it and when the Journalist asked him about it he said something like "it's either Freedom for my people or it's going to be death - there is no other option" or something like that - I cannot remember clearly. Next time I am on campus, I am going to look up more. I have access to ALL micro-film of that era from the New York Times. I hope to have information soon......

MM

I wonder why battle of cannaes doesn't reply to MK's thread

LOL - I wonder - The journalists that interviewed Macedonian soldiers and farmers whom CLEARLY identified themselves as "Macedonian" in 1903, coupled with the several Macedonian Uprsing throughout the 1800s, coupled with the fact that on gravestones from the late 1800's early 1900s clearly indicate "Macedonian" individuals from "Macedonia," http://maknews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1181, coupled with the fact that my great grandfather called himself Macedonian and fought beside his Macedonain revolutionary brothers in 1903, coupled with the fact that my grandfather (one of them) and his fellow Macedonian soldiers had to watch thousands of Macedonian soldiers, friends, and family be killed and then HAD TO BURY them so "the occupiers" could prove a point to us - all because they wanted to fight for their land, their Macedonia, to take back the Aegean - coupled with everything else we have uncovered, CLEARLY indicates that A MACEDONIAN CONSCIENCE EXISTED 150 years or more (uncovered recorded data) prior to "Tito," prior to Yugo, and during the same period the "Romi" and "Vulgars" gained their "Greek" and "Bulgar" conscience. The major difference? Macedonians always had that Macedonian conscience - we were ALWAYS Macedonian - Never Romi - Never Bulgar - Never Vulgar - Never Greek - Never Turk - Never Ottoman - Never Serb - Never Serv - ALWAYS MACEDONIAN. Fucking losers - Macedonia and Macedonians are VERY valuable - thats why they all fight for us and our land, to try to forge a "presence" in Macedonia. Sorry "Romi" and "Vulgar" and "Serv" and "Shiqp," WE ARE MACEDONIAN. YOU are and always will be "Romi," "Vulgar," "Servs," and "Shiqp."

MM

This article can be posted also in the Macedonian Soldiers link Macedo Bulgar Issue, but it fits here also, cause it is from the Ilinden time.


Nikola Karev, IM MACEDONIAN (note the document is from 1903, Greek Paper :wink: )





MM thats good Idea... I dont have much time now, but have several references which I have to go trough, but later.........

He replied "history says he is greek" about the alexander the great question. Is he implying history is wrong or what?

XRVOL I assume that is what he meant. Then again we must also remember at that time education was not at all abundant with the type of inforamtion we have had in the last 30 or even 40 or so years.

if you've read misirkov and pulevski's texts, the macedonians back then speak about alexander as one of their own. even the greeks (who today claim alexander was greek) used it as leverage to get them to revolt against the turks (za makedonskite raboti- misirkov).

I was asked for larger copies of the excerpts of the New York Time, here they are (I enlarged them using Photoshop, so if they come bit wiard you know):



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Even though they fought brave, the aid didnt came, here is one reason:




In the "Macedonian Knot" by Hans Lothar Steppan on Page 160 we can get another clue why Russians didnt helped Macedonians:

In year 1908, fife years after the bloody suppresion of Illinden Uprising, Englich and Russian Monarch had meeting in Reval. Asked about the outcome of the meeting, the Greek Monarch George gave this Information :
" He doesn't know the exact outcome of the nagotiation. How ever he heard that both Sovereigns have achieved an Agreement."

It is quite easy to understand why Russians didnt support the Illinden Uprising! They had their own plans, and had to nagotiate with the Englishmen.

Thanks a lot mk!!

no problem dejance, here is the book I was talking about:








Talking about the Premier Peroff, I think it is the same, or at least just another Interview with him with the same statement we have here above.

VOSTANIE

Very interesting book! How did you learn of it? I don't think i've read this in the news...??