i was looking for anemoticon that expressed boredom, this debate has juts about gone everwhere and we are still all sticking to our origianl positions.

maknews i commend your patience, but how do you get through to modern greeks, who in the 70s renamed turkish coffee and sincerely believe fraape is also a neo hellenic invention.

come on lets cut all this crap, modern greeks are not victims of propaganda they are willing participants in the continual oppression of any dissenting voice. their "narrative" as its often refferred to here by our pseudo learned fools is too fragile to be subject to any real scrutiny.

olympias and andreas wouldnt accept anything that doesnot satisfy their vainglorious egos.

dont make any excuses for them maknews, they are not misguided fools clinging to ancient dreams. They are modern tyrants totally aware of their
role in the oppression of macedonians turks albanians and deluded vlachs. i must draw your atention to how you described the mullahs in iran
as evil people. what is the difference between the dogamatic mullahs and our own neo hellenic fundamentalists.

Osiris, Modern Greeks have lost the ethnic identity of their recent ancestors. Many grkomani in Aegean Macedonia won't even speak Macedonian in front of their children. Most do not know their original family name -- they only know the Greek name imposed on them in the 1920s.

The transplanted populations had no 'national' consciousness prior to being brought in and this poor peasant stock readily accepted their new Greek identity and language. What history do they have left of their ancestors in Asia Minor and the Black Sea region? They only know what the government tells them.

There are five million souls living in Athens 99.9% of whom have no connection to the city prior to the 1830s.

You lived there so you know the mentality better than I but in my life I have only met a handful of Modern Greeks that knew and were willing to acknowledge their true ethnic heritage. And even then only in private.

Greece uses ethnic memorycide on the one hand and promotes an artificial 'Hellenic' identity on the other. It may seem absurd to us but this is how things are done in Greece and Modern Greeks view it is a wonderful thing.

maknews you identify an ethnos only from the language factor. You ignore or you want to do, the major factors of the Biopolitics. The two major factors of the ethnos formation are Descent and the Consciousness. Both should coexist in the formation of a ethnos. When two branches of the same ethnos have lived for a long time in different places or under different conditions, then it is natural for them, in spite of the resamplance of their characters, to have developed distinct memories and a different history, and perhaps even separate language and civilisation: they would form thus distinct nations despite their racial identity. Heterogeneous people with pseudo-national consciousness may regard religion (Islam for example), language (such as Panslavism), or coexistence (for instance, the USSR, Yugoslavia) as factors making them a "Nation" or "Ethnos". One other example is your State that try to prove its continuity from the past into the present when generically and Bio-politically is known that you have Slavonic Descent.
Vlach-speakers, Arvanite-speakers and dopie-speakers have common Consciousness with the Greek-speakers and they had proved by fighting in the past and in the present the other common speakers that had Different Consciousness .This is the reason that I said that the Modern Greek nation (in the beginning) was not "a community of citizens " but a "cultural group".

I have heared you many times to say the Turkish-speakers that came from Minor Asia and bla-bla. For your information was only 60.000 people with full of Greek Consciousness.Actually this was the reason that expelled from the Turks.

Genetics and Anthopology has prooved the continuity of the Greek nation from the ancient into the present.Biopolitics reject genetics as factor to determine a "ethnos" when accept the athropolgy.

Olympias

Genetics?? Cranial measurments maybe?Of an anatolian male from bfr 4000 yrs???

Amusing olympias - can we please see those genetic reports & antropologic measurments??

and your comment about the ethnos are simply not valid. For exmpl - when we were in Yugoslavia there was a common yugoslavian coincesness, but noone would have ever said to you that he is an "ethnic" yugoslavian - or ethnic "soviet". We were citizens of yugoslavia - ETHNIC MACEDONIANS, SERBIANS etc. The same as if you today accept who you are and take the "greece" as we did yu - as a citizen identifier, not an ethnic one.

1-On the Morphological Variety of Modern Greeks,John Koumaris, Man, Vol. 48. (Nov., 1948), pp. 126-127, on-line in jstor

2-Social Biology of Greek Culture Growth, J. Lawrence Angel, American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 48, No. 4, Part 1. (Oct. - Dec., 1946), pp.
493-533, on-line in jstor

4-The Origin of Greeks, Aris Poulianos, Ph.D Thesis at Moscow Institute of Anthropology; Reprinted in Athens in 1962, 1965, 1968, and 1988.

5-The Races of Europe ,Carleton Stevens Coon, Knopf, 1962, on-line in Nordish Physical Anthropology

6-http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/A_2002_v76_p707-714.pdf

Olympias

Fine. Names of books. Like that means something. And what do they say??Macedonia was a buffer protecting the ancient hellenes from the "noughty" little slavs, goths, avars, bulgars and so on??They had their hellenism there protected for centuries, right??Lucky mofos i must admit...

Whatever olympias be whatever you want believe whatever you want. I have no problem with it. Just allow us the same. Thats where my problem starts, you see.

Magedon except one study all the others studies are on-line in the internet.

Olympias

Olympias, I don't mean to be a pain:

Could you please show me that DNA / Genetics study (which you mentioned in your earlier post) which proves "Greek continuity" from Ancient times up until today?

I haven't heard of such study and such results. My understanding is that the Greeks are strongly against DNA tests for Ancestry, because all results to date have been proof against your so called "narrative" (read: lie).

Rogi is not my problem if you dont understand the contininuity of the gene pool among the Greeks from Neolithic until modern times that Stanford genetical study proves it.

Olympias

Olympias, why did US censuses change their view on the Macedonian language in 1910??

Please tell us that instead of Propagating your view of NON-existant Macedonians.

We were mentioned in 1899, 1920 and 1930!

WHY not in 1910?

Olympias, again, please show me a DNA / Genetic study which shows continuity of the Ancients to the modern Greeks.

(I meant a link - not a dumb answer like your previous one).

MACEDONIANS are also noticed in 1909 by the US Immigration Commission!



The name of the article is "Race, Skills, and Earnings: American Immigrants in 1909" by Robert Higgs it is published in "The Journal of Economic History, Vol. 31, No. 2. (Jun., 1971), pp. 420-428." this is taken from page 424.


What else is hidden out there?

This classification is based upon linguistic differences -...."distinctions which are largely a matter of language". That's why in Italy we have 2 races - North Italians and South Italians and in Bulgaria - Bulgarians and Macedonians. But as American paper (not reliable ) I will stay in the Greece that say Greek and Macedonian!!!
In 1910 the Greek borders was until South Thessaly!!!!

Olympias

Don't get too excited sweety, the reason it says Macedonian in Bulgaria and Greece is because it was a Macedonian-speaking minority in those countries, like you said, in 1910 Thessaly was the border of northern Greece, hence in Turkey-in-Europe there are also Macedonians and Greeks, by your logic we should now consider these to be the Macedonian and Greek dialects of Turkish? I don't think so. Macedonians helped Greeks and Bulgarians during the days of freedom fighting , and how do these greatful neighbours repay us for our brotherly aid? They tear apart our country and poison it with propaganda.

Those reading this forum, please take solid note of Olympias' first statement - alluding to the fact that things "American" are not reliable. For your background information, this has been a solid stance from Olympias for some time now. Anything American = Everything Non-Reliable (and unworthy of discussion). Now, let's take a closer look at what this individual has provided us. Do you see it yet? Look, one more time, at the quotes above. Now do you see it? Ah, great. There you have it - the story of Olympias.

Very, very interesting

John Lawrence Angel was British and not American!!! . Anyway I stay in my quote that any American paper is not reliable. I am just adding those papers that publish from any official administrating source in order to avoid the misunderstandings.

Olympias

How am I going to unravel this? The massive underlying assumption to what you just said is 'racial continuity'.

You presuppose that two people with clearly distinctive cultural marks are of the same 'ethnos'. The Pontians were clearly culturally, linguistically and religiously, nothing like the new mainland Greek, and yet they are 'of the same ethnos'. Figure? How? You also say that 'consciousness' is important in 'ethnos'. Well, Pontians never saw themselves much like the new mainland Greeks. Even the new langauge of Greece, was completely alien and foriegn to them.

You see that is the problem. Your 'consciousness' is not hereditary. It has been constructed for you and imposed on you. Now you are imposing it on history - on the history of people such as the Pontians, and Macedonians that represent a kind of counter-discourse - to the official truth of the State power structure. The State uses techniques, such as education, among other things, to get its idea of what ''it'' stands for, of what ''it'' represents, across to its diverse citizens. The Aegean was colonised by an 'idea' that was conceptualised in Western Europe about 200 years ago, an 'idea' of what Greece should be - and the State has been trying to live up to it ever since - it still is. Shite, someone has to fight that power structure.

There is nothing authentic about it - your a product of the State - your State has to deny the true natives of Greece - to make sure you can sleep better at night knowing that know one was there before you - right? sheez....