Can someone tell me what exactly is the issue with this whole ordeal that is dividing our community over here?

What is going on? How is it dividing our community? How it started? etc, etc.

I have asked many people and they never really tell me exactly what is going on.

All i know is that it goes something along the lines of:

The MOC does not recognise the Epping church as well as a couple of others outside of Victoria because they dont want to be owned and give their money to the MOC. The MOC does not send Macedonian priests over to Epping from Macedonia. The Epping church is the oldest in Melbourne, i think.

What i dont understand is that how it divides the community. People might see the Macedonians that attend Epping as traitors and the priest as fake, but in all honesty, i have not found this to be true. I have met the priest from Epping and he is a good guy. I know people who attend the Epping Church and they are like the rest of us.

I have seen people interacting with this priest and with people who attend that church and i see no hate or divisions happening.

I have heard that it is all the fault of the Macedonian Vladika Petar, who's term has expired long ago.

Their is also a dispute between the Sydenham Churches.

[Please leave this topic in 'General Discussions' - Maknews]

This division seems to have spread accross the country. I think there was some sort of dispute or falling out between the Vladika and the Macedonian Orthodox Churches in Australia. One side accused the MOC of corruption, as the saying goes "shit hit the fan".

tell me why the hell they didn't want to be owned by the MOC??? thats the problem right there, there is no reason for it, just outright stupidity. they don't understand that the only reason they are ALLOWED to put "Macedonian Orthodox Church" is if they are part of the MOC, if not your not macedonian orthodox, your some kind of an australian macedonian amalgamation

I think there is a bit more to it than that, church issues can become rather messy. You can't blame the Epping church for having a feel for autonomy, that section of our community have been around for a long time, they have every right to call themselves Macedonian, no two ways about it, in my family the most frequented are the Preston and the Epping churches and we don't differentiate between them.

The politics should not enter it, both are places of worship for Macedonian Orthodox Christians.

If we as a community cannot respect the Laws and Constitution of our church, the Macedonian Orthodox Church - why do we have expectations that we will be recognised as an Orthodox Church by the others?

It is a messy issue and it is all to do with Title ownership and management of the funds.

Right now, the issue has gone into the messy stage because it has moved from an issue of Principality to an issue full of emotion and individual feelings and opinions (of those involved), all at the expense of the community and our trust and unity as a community.

Had the issue been settled on the basis of :

Church title goes to the Macedonian Orthodox Church as well as management of funds, while the other assets (such as the social clubs/centre's and so on would be run by a formed community council and managed as a Trust, with money being managed by the Community and used for the Community).

All these solutions (and many more) were offered, even back nearly years ago but there was no compromise from either side, only emotion-fuelled arguments.

It is a very messy issue.


As an FYIi: The Epping Church is not the oldest church. The oldest church (and first Macedonian church) became under the control of the Macedonian Orthodox Community (not the Macedonian Orthodox Church) a few years back, who were unable to manage it financially and sold that church. It was consequently bulldozed and now a factory exists in it's place - that's what happens when individuals control the church rather than the Macedonian Orthodox Church running all of our churches, united (and therefore has a lot more money and means to manage and maintain the churches).

Yeah good point Rogi.

From what i've been told by friend in Sydney, it all started when individual Macedonians began to make building Churches as a business? They'd buy the land themselves, build the Church, and expect that they're owners, so building a Church without the consent of the MOC...or doesn't have to be buying the land and all, just investing in an already built one, and when MOC came in they didn't want to lose their investments and give all the money to the MOC...it all sounds very confusing.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what was going on. The MOC stated clearly that all titles needed to be assigned over to them. We are talking about old communities that created these establishments (church included). Clearly the diaspora communities have been the driving force in relation to the continued existence of these satellite Macedonian groups. It also has to be said that most of these churches precede the existence of the MOC.

The MOC did not want just the churches, they wanted everything.

The same crap happened in the local greek community as well.

Quite frankly, I do not trust the heads of the church. Their intentions were purely financially driven. I lay the blame squarely on an opportunistic church.

I always said .. .give them the church under a 100 year lease with a 1 metre boundary around them. The halls and facilities have nothing to do with the church. Yugoslavia was not helping when these places were being built 50 years ago.

Risto the Great

My proposal for the structure for ethnic community might have been a better idea.

The community owns the halls and the churches which it builds, and the church is given the right to occupy the church "rent free" if you will. The proceeds made within the church can go towards the MOC (and their official structures), but the infrastructure remain within the community's ownership.

If you end up handing control over to centralised organisations (such as the MOC), nothing gets improved for the community. Instead, the money just trickles up to the centre of power and nothing is spent for the people who make the community what it is.

What a community should have is a board of directors and a chairman. Each member on the board should represent different organisations, such as the MOC, Youth Group, Pensioner Assoc, Dance Group, Soccer Club and an Infrastructure Group. The leader of each of these organisations will be elected by each branch's members (thus keeping the notion of community power). These people will get together to discuss the direction of the Mac Community and coordinate cooperation between each sub-unit of the community.

Eg. to use any of the facilities owned by the Macedonian Community the Infrastructure group would determine the fees required such that they can cover costs and also spend revenue in renovations or upgrades.

The Chairman would be the community's representative and major decisions would be made through this board of directors.

To me, this is the clearest way to ensure efficient and non-corrupt methods of keeping the community alive, and making it flexible enough for younger generations to get their hands dirty and get involved.

Once again, nothing really answered.

The Epping Church does not want to sign over evreything because it was built before MOC was established and MOC contributed zero to its formation?

I think the owner of Epping church does not want to be owned by MOC because the Macedonian people in Melbourne built the church with their own money and he wants its profits to be under control by Epping because of that.

I have also heard that this whole dispute is Vladika Petar's fault and that he is corrupt, which also adds to Epping's decision.

His term has already expired and should have been replaced a while ago.

I think the general feeling among the diaspora is that when Vladika Petar goes, the issue will be resolved.

You cant blame Epping for their position, it was built before MOC and had no funds from MOC. It should be owned by MOC but its profit controlled by Epping.

Hopefully its resolved soon, whatever the decision is.

XRVOL, so who decides what happens to the Church then?

Should a handful of people (like now) be able to run the whole church and it's finances and even have the right to sell it - as it is now? Because hundreds of Macedonians gave money for that church, like all the others, to be built - where is their say?

With regards to church profits etc. we shouldn't really be discussing them or be concerned. A church should operate for what it needs and not be focused on profits. It is a church!

This is why I don't like mixing the church with a community organisation, because you get immediate conflicts between the community's infrastructural needs and the use of "church proceeds" to fill these needs. The two should be mutually exclusive if the notion of having a church is to be considered all together.

I think that Communities should create a clear legal distinction between the Church and Community structures. Yes, the informal link is natural and vital, but a formal segregation is required to keep each side's vested interests in tact, because let's face it, the MPC does not particularly care about the success of the next spring dance at the local Sveti Kiril i Metodij community centre in the US (i will assume that such a place exists :p), or the fact that the air conditioner is broken in the main auditorium.

Different organisations, different needs and interests. They need to be clearly and efficiently defined in order to operate.

As a rough guide, How many churches have a community hall on the premisis of the Church?

PS. My ideal plan is for an international orthodox church to exist, headquarters in Moscow.

Here in Australia, the Macedonians, Greeks, Serbians, Russians will all be under the Australian branch of THE Orthodox Church (each church with it's own language services). The ownership of the church buildings and church land SHOULD belong to the Australian branch of the Orthodox Church.

The establishment of such a structure would not only stop bickering between the old countries (eg. between Maks and Greeks), but it would make the Orthodox world powerful.

Oh really was it? From what I remember MOC is just a continuation of the OA, which was shutdown or however you want to say, in the mid 1700's unless your church is that old then, I think the Aussies are to blame for this. But we havent had any of those kind of problems here in the US.

Anything the church makes should go to the MOC, and I say Church, not your halls or whatever.

tell me why, other then a hall i guess, do these churchs own freaken apartments and daycares and other completely nonsense things??

it kinda looks like its not just the MOC's leadership that are thinking for their finnancial pockets

Yugoslavia has nothing to do with the MOC, which you seem to forget. To me it looks like its the other way around. The MOC is not the one "financially driven", to me it seems it the CEO....I mean the owners of the church who money hungry.

Yugoslavia was the country in existence at the time of the creation of these churches. We can talk about the Ohrid Archbishopric until we all get sentimental, but the MPC was not in existence at the time of creation of these churches. The churches are (should be) typically held in trust by the governing committee on behalf of the local community. The community votes and achieves what it feels is right through democratic principles.

Some people here think the church is a money making machine that bellows excessive profits to the greedy landowners. It costs a lot of money to keep the church alive and the money comes from Australia ... not the other way round. I have absolutely no doubt that the community centres would have been sold off very quickly had titles been transferred to the MOC. Could you imagine the reactions from the oldies who built these places?

Risto the Great

The churches belong to the local communities that built them, the MOC's role is to supply priests, strange how no one asks what happens to money collected by priests during, “mrtva sabota”, blessings of homes and so forth etc.

Some local committees may well be corrupt others provide a very good service, I doubt that the MOC will run things any better. The current issue is basically a money grab by the Vladika, and most people don’t want to hand over property to the MOC.

Exactly, this is why the community needs to be the legal owners of the chuch's infrastructure and land, and lease it freely to the MOC. The MOC then manages its own funds based on donations etc etc. Clear mind, clear conscience, and the community has the security of owning what they built, which is how it should be. By all means, the mac community should be run like a business, because money is an important tool in creating a certain standard. However, responsibilities and relationships between church and community organisations should be clearly distinguished.

The Epping church is a different story. I think one person had paid for the majority of the required funds. If the MOC take it and sell it, he gets nothing. He put most of the money in the church and now MOC want it.

If the whole community chipped in amounts and there was no real one major donar, than MOC ownership would not be an issue.

If it is in the hands of the MOC, they could just as easily, if not more likely, sell it.

I personally think that it should be owned by MOC, but its money be controlled by a Macedonia Church Council in Australia. This would be logical.

I dont have the whole facts of the situation, but i think the core problem to this issue is Vladika Petar. I dont know what exactly his role is, but i think that he is the one who controls the money generated from the churches in Australia. I think that Epping believe that he is corrupt and cant be trusted with looking after the funds and using those funds wisely and for the Macedonians in Australia.

I think its an issue of: Will the Macedonians in Australia be looked after when all church proceeds go to MOC. With Vladika Petar in power, Epping doesn't believe so and refuses to give in.

Nikolce, RtG summed it up perfectly. MPC as it is now, was not around.

They own these things to make money for the local community. Not themselves.

rumours and innuendos about macedonias making money from the cause are the most destructive and negative actions one can take as a macedonian.

i dont know waht drives people to make such claims, most people involved in the establshment of the macedonian churches hav been patriots and always gave of their time energy and money.

i remember my father knocking on doors for the fitzroy church to raise funds he aproached every macedonian family including grkoman and most of them were persuaded to give.

risto altin has been villified and acused of that shit most of his life, without any evidence only the bile of jealous nobodies who had they contributed one percent as much to the community as altin we would have triple what we have now.

given the corruption and nepotism of balkan politics and churches why would we entrust our communitie hard earned and freely given money to the first bishop who demands it.

bishop petar has managed to alienate most of the older australian macedonian communities with his approach and in the process divide our people.