Discussion with Ilias Petropoulos regarding Macedonian and Greek Issueshttp://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/93654By Liljana Kotevska
March 14, 1992, Epoha, pages 34-36
Translated and edited by Risto Stefov
Ilias Petropoulos is a Greek poet and writer who in 1975 left Greece and went to live in Paris. Discontent with the way he was treated in Greece because of what he thought and wrote he fled to France to pursue what he loves the most, his writing. Petropoulos said he was fed up with the pretentiousness, intolerance, racism and chauvinism that goes on in that country and decided it was time to abandon it.
Ilias Petropoulos is one of those rare Greeks who has taken interest in studying the “real” aspects of Balkan culture particularly those of old Salonika (Solun) in Greek occupied Macedonia. As a Greek himself he understands the neo-Greek mentality and what it does to people in modern Greece, particularly to the Macedonians.
Petropoulos accepted to do this interview, conducted by Liljana Kotevska on March 14, 1992, because he felt it was time that he spoke up and let people know how he felt about his experiences in Greece.
Q. Mr. Petropoulos, why are you exiled?
My answer would be for freedom. The freedom to write without being afraid. The freedom to publish my works without fear of persecution. I have been jailed several times in the past. I always wanted to leave Greece so that I can write. I managed to do that in 1975 and since then I have never returned.
My writing is about ideas that are not appreciated by the so-called “intellectuals” in that country. In fact they hate what I write so I am forced to work without a bibliography which means I have to strictly rely on my own memory which is like a vault full of data.
Q. You have written a beautiful nostalgic essay about Solun with a picture of the 1912 Greek occupation of that city. What do you remember about that?
My father was a civil servant in the Greek government and as part of his service he was obligated to serve at various places in Greece. During the 1930’s he was ordered to go to Northern Greece and serve in Solun. At that time Solun was still a large and multinational city dominated by Jews. I remember Solun was a multi-ethnic city with a mottle of different people with their various languages. Solun was not a ghetto but a city of ethnic communities organized in different neighbourhoods each with its own Church, Mosque, or Synagogue and each supporting a different profession or skill. You had your Jews, Greeks, Albanians, Macedonians, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbians, Vlachs, Grekophones, Turkophones, Karamans (Orthodox Turkophones from Asia Minor), Doimi (Islamized Jews) and Franko-Levantists.
Q. I understand that after Macedonia’s division Solun, the Balkan Metropolis you speak of, was transformed into a provincial city. What can you tell us about that?
Yes you are right. From that moment on Solun lost its place of being rich and famous and fell into misery. Before the Balkan Wars and before the First World War, Solun was a grand city with its harbours full of foreign ships from all over Europe. When Solun was taken over by the Greeks it not only lost its multi-ethnic character, it lost its luster and appeal and there was no longer reason for foreign ships to remain there. Then after more than 40,000 Jews left, Solun was dealt another death blow completely losing its place as a great city.
Q. Obviously you were negatively influenced by your experience in Greece and you feel a need to write and expose its chauvinism. What can you tell us about that?
The Greek racism and chauvinism we are witnessing today is mainly due to the educational indoctrination or the kind of education we have all received in Greek schools. From youth children are taught to be paranoid and confrontational towards their neighbours and towards the Balkan reality. Racism in Greece comes in various forms and wears many different masks. I believe the best remedy for eliminating this sort of behaviour is to expose people to the truth and recognize all people for who they truly are. This reminds me of the time I sent a letter to Melina Merkouri, then Greek Minister of Culture, to let her know that a certain group of archeologists were planning to remove Bogomil graves from the territory of Macedonia to prove that Slavs never set foot in this Greek territory. I saw this with my own eyes and even took photographs which I later sent to Athens and Paris. Unfortunately, the Minister never answered my letter nor did she make any comment to the articles I wrote about that, which only proves that she not only knew about it, she was part of the conspiracy to cover up the existence of Slav graves in Macedonia. And by doing that did she really prove that Slavs never laid a foot in this “holy land of Greece”?
Q. One of Greece’s most tragic periods is the Greek Civil War. What do you remember about that?
About that! In 1990 I published a book entitled “Corpses, corpses, corpses” in which I covered the German occupation of 1941 to 1944 and the Greek Civil War of 1946 to 1949. Even though the democratic movement in that period [during the Greek Civil War] was bathed in blood the real Greek tragedy came later during the Karamanlis dictatorship of 1955 to 1963. This is the period during which the democratic people of Greece were truly smothered. If you ask an outsider even if they are Europeans they will say the worst period in Greece was the Greek Civil War or the dictatorship of the Colonels but the truth is the Karamanlis era was the worst. If I can describe him in any way I would say he is the murderer of Greek culture.
Q. Mr. Petropoulos, are you familiar with the story of the 28,000 refugee children which were exiled during the Greek Civil War and since then have been displaced all over the world?
I am well aware of their story but not all the children are Macedonian, some are from other parts of Greece. What is more frightening than that story is the story of the children caught by the Greek Monarcho-Fascists. Did you know that the Monarcho-Fascists had orders to take by force, kidnap children from the groups that were leaving? These children, under the protection of Queen Frederica, were all sent to isolated schools which existed everywhere in Greece from Solun to Rhodes. These schools were like jails and children taught there were destined to become the new Praetorian Guard or the janissary in Greece’s service.
Q. How was the defeat of the Democratic Army of Greece and General Markos treated in Greece?
This is a very intricate question whose answer can fill an entire book. In hindsight we know that Stalin abandoned the Partisans in Greece and left them to meet their own fate. Tito too gave up on them when he broke off his relations with the Democratic Army of Greece. We also know that Tito allowed the Monarcho-Fascists to enter Yugoslavia in 1949 to cut off the Partisans from retreating. As for Markos, I believe he was a good person and did his job during the occupation and during the Greek Civil War but failed to stop the political failures and subsequent liquidations.
Q. Mr. Petropoulos what can you tell us about the military dictatorships in Greece?
The so-called “Colonel Dictatorship”, I can tell you, was tragic but more comical than dangerous. It is well known that there have always been tortures committed in Greece. In fact no matter what regime was in power, it committed torture but none more than the Karamanlis regime. The Karamanlis regime was particularly brutal by its specific targeting of the leftists. When Papadopoulos, the leader of the dictatorship took over, he began to torture everyone, even those on the right. The Greek bourgeoisie was caught by surprise by this one because Greece had now regressed and had re-introduced the old classic method of torture only to use it against itself. How ironic? You can’t trust anything or anyone in Greece.
Q. There is an ongoing dispute between an Orthodox Cleric and a number of Greek artists like Kazanzakis, Angelopoulos and his latest film, etc. What can you tell us about that?
There are certain Metropolitans, voyeurs of a neo-Orthodox movement, who are trying to scare Angelopoulos and others like Freda Ljana, Kazanzakis, etc., people involved in cinema. As for Kazanzakis himself, he is not really in serious trouble because he never was a revolutionary and he wears a ten meter cross on his chest. But in Rondis’s and Laskaratos’s case they are in real trouble that is why those two were in jail. Rondis is a good artist and may be one of the most important and most captivating of Greek writers.
Q. Going back to Solun. Nowadays we witness one massive manifestation of Greek chauvinism in Solun against the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia. What can you tell us about that?
The massive meeting of the “people” as was presented by Greek authorities was organized and supported by all the political parties in Greece. This was a dangerous chauvinist manifestation. As I recall there was word that the residents of Solun were claiming they did not know who these “Slavo-Macedonians” were. Perhaps they were pretending they didn’t know because according to official Greece “Macedonians don’t exist”. If they don’t exist then how can there be a name for a people that don’t exist. And if they don’t exist how could the residents of Solun know about them? This is what the “sold-out” professors from the University in Solun were saying. These are the same “sold-out” professors who have been trying their best to prove “the Greek-ness of Macedonia”. And if I may add, these are the same “sold-out” professors who can’t even prove their own Greek-ness.
Take a look at Karamanlis for example. His mother is a Slavic speaker and his father is a Turkish speaker. How about Manolis Andronikos? How Greek is he? This is not an exception; this applies to every Modern Greek. Every Greek has his own non-Greek story. That is why “Greeks” like these have an inferiority complex and need to boast about their Greek-ness, need to play the “super patriot card” and hold lectures on patriotism.
Q. As I recall Kostantinos Karamanlis, in the beginning of this year, wrote a letter to his European partners calling their attention to the Macedonian question. Will the Europeans give him their attention?
Karamanlis is of no significance in Europe. Europe is currently passing through a phase, a transformation of shedding its wool and this is complicating things in the Balkans. Greece has no strategy in its national politics and is nervously reacting to the changing situation. This nervousness is manifesting itself in bad politics and horrible diplomacy. Instead of acting rationally Greece is reacting irrationally to the new situation causing disharmony in the region. Whatever war Greece was fighting, it has lost it. Today Turkey is rising in dominance in the region between the Balkans, the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. Turkey will become a great power and fast.
Q. In the publication entitled “Minorities in Greece” published in Athens some time ago there is a mention that the “Slavo-Macedonians” are the third largest group of people. What do you know about that?
Unfortunately Greek politicians are unwilling to accept reality and are consumed by their destructive tactics of playing the nationalist or racist card. The Greek government was well versed with the term “Macedonia the country” from many international communications but now the instant that country became a reality Greece found a need to negate its existence. The Greek government is as blind to the existence of the country Macedonia as it is blind to a lot of internal problems to which it remarks with expressions like “we may not be far from the day when the Christians will ask for the independence of Crete”.
Q. What do you thing of Macedonia? What does Macedonia mean to you?
The Kurds before Xenophone’s epoch moved between Armenia and Mesopotamia but did not succeed in securing a country of their own but the Macedonians did. The neo-Greeks think they are the descendents of the Ancient Greeks and of the Byzantines and by that they believe they have exclusive right to the name “Macedonia”. These are the same people who insisted that Istanbul be called Constantinople. I think my Greek compatriots have many more bitter pills to swallow.
Veljanovski meets with Badinter
Utriski, February 28, 2009
Assembly President Trajko Veljanovski participant in a Conference of the Presidents of European Union Parliaments and country candidates yesterday met with French Senator and International legal expert, Robert Badinter in Paris. Badinter, regarding the name dispute said “I am surprised by Greece’s irrational response which does not comply with Aristotle’s philosophy”.
(MIA)
Ekskluzivno od Pariz
Mislovna bommba na Balkanot
PARANOI^NA KONFRONTACIJA SO BALKANSKA REALNOST
Gr~kiot pisatel Elijas Petropulos koi pred dvaeset godini ja napu{ti Grcija i `ivee vo Pariz gi analizira korenite na gr~kata paranoja i {ovinizam
Sredbata so Elijas Petropulos, gr~ki poet i pisatel vo egzil se sovpada vo denovite na Mitingot vo Solun - posledniot masoven izraz na {ovinizmot vo Grcija. Dodeka francuskite informativni sredstva i mediumi donesuvaat informacii za mitingot vo isto vreme, vo prostoriite na Nacionalniot institute za orientalni jazici i civilizacii vo Pariz se odr`uva{e istorisko-teoretska debata posvetena na posledniot broj na poznatata revija “Otrman” koja objavi impozanten zbornik od trudovite i arhivskite fotografii za Solun vo ~est na petstogodi{ninata od masovnoto doseluvawe na Evreite vo ovoj grad nekoga{en “evropski budilnik na Balkanot”.
Vo poznatstvoto ima{e sudbinska neposrednost. “ Na moite sosedi (kako Makedonci i Pari`ani) od srce – ja napi{a slednata posveta na edna od negovite knigi prifa}aki ja pokanata za razgovor.
Trgnuvajki od faktot {to preku eden razgovor ne mo`e da se re{i sudbinata na bilo koj narod, si ja dopu{tiv smelosta da ja “voznemiram” osameni~kata du{a na tvorecot, edinstveno motivirana od `elbata da go podelam poznanstvoto so ovoj so site onie ~itateli koi veruvaat i priznavaat edna edinstvena sila – silata na duhot.
Za sebe veli deka ne pripa|a nikomu i deka edinstveniot vodi~ mu e rabotata.
Koja e tajnata na va{iot egzil?
Slobodata. Slobodata da pi{uvam bez fobija. Slobodata da objavuvam bez krivi~ni progoni. Pove}e pati bev osuduvan i zatvoran za moite dela. Otsekoga{ sakav da zaminam od Grcija za da mo`am da di{am. Uspeav da go storam toa vo 1975 godina i ottoga{ ne sum se vratil.
Jas rabotam sekoga{ vrz temi koe {to blaziranite “intelektualci” gi zaobikoluvaat i mrazat. Poradi toa rabotam bez bibliografija. Zna~i jas sum obvrzan da ja koristam mojata memorija. Ja koristan nea kako trezor na podatoci.
Va{iot prekrasen esej za nostalgija za Solun so slikata na gr~kata okupacija na ovoj grad vo 1912 god. [to e glavnata sodr`ina na va{ite spomeni?
Mojata familija se “iska~i” od Atina vo Solun, bidejki mojot tatko, kako dr`aven slu`benik po naredba treba{e da zamine vo Severna Grcija. Toa be{e 30-setite godini, vreme koga Solun se u{te be{e eden golem multinacionalen grad, vo koj be{e dominanten evrejskiot element. Moite spomeni od toa vreme se vrzani za edno {arenilo od najrazli~ni narodi, so nivnite razli~ni jazici. Vo Solun ne egzistira{e geto. Etni~kite zaednici bea organizirani vo razli~ni maala, okolu edna crkva, xamija ili sinagoga i vo razli~itite profesii karakteristi~ni za sekoja odelna grupa, Evrei, Grci, Albanci, Makedonci, Ermeni, Bugari, Srbi, Aromanci (Vlasi), Lazini (grkofoni i turkofoni), Karamanlii (ortodoksni turkofoni od Anatolija), Donmi (islamizirani Evrei) Frankolevantici.
Po podelbata na Makedonija ovaa balkanska metropola se pretvorila vo provinciski grad?
Da, od onoj moment koga Solun go izgubi prostorot od koj gi izvlekuva{e svoite bogastva propadna vo edna mizerija. Na primer pred balkanskite vojni i pred 1. svetska vojna pristani{tata vo Solun bea polni so stranski brodovi. Po 1930 g. za stranskite brodovi ne postoe{e pri~ina da pristanuvaat vo Solun. Po ovaa zaguba na ovoj balkanski prostor eve u{te eden smrten udar za Solun; okolu 40 000 Evrei go napu{tija Solun.
Vie ste reagirale i pi{uvale protiv oficijalniot gr~ki {ovinizam. Kako ja objasnuvata negovata pojava.
Sovreneniot gr~ki rasizam ili {ovinizam doa|a vo najgolema mera od obrazovanieto {to gi vodi gr~kite deca kon edna paranoi~na konfrontacija so balkanskata realnost. Potrebna e edna te{ka i dolga borba protiv rasizmot, koj se prestavuva vo razli~ni maski. Veruvam deka najdobar lek protiv negovata pojava e dlabokoto zapoznavawe me|u narodite. Si spomnuvam za pismoto {to & go isprativ na Gr~kiot minister za kultura Melina Merkuri, vo koe ja obviniv za toa {to organizira ekspedicija na arheolozi za da gi transportiraat poslednite bogomilski grobovi od teritorijata na Makedonija, za da doka`e deka Slovenite nikoga{ ne stapnale na gr~ka teritorija . Jas li~no so moi o~i sum gi videl i objaviv fotografii vo Atina i Pariz.
Se razbira gospo|ata ministerka, psevdo socijalist-demokratska nikoga{ ne odgovori nitu na moeto oficijalno pismo nitu na moite napisi. I taka taa “doka`a” deka Slovenite nikoga{ ne stapnale na “svetata zemja Grcija”!
Eden od najtragi~nite periodi na Grcija e periodot na gra|anskata vojna (1946-49). Va{ite spomeni od toj period?
Oh! 1990 g. ja objaviv mojata kniga “Le{evi, le{evi, le{evi” kade zboruvam za germanskata okupacija (1941-44) i za gra|anskata vojna 1946/49 g. Komunisti~koto dvi`ewe vo Grcija be{e zagu{eno vo krv. No, najte{kiot period za gr~kata levica be{e vsu{nost kriptodiktaturata na Karamalis 1955/63 g. i nikako gra|anskata vojna i ne diktaturata na polkovnicite kako {to mislat Evropejcite.
Politikantot Karamanlis e ubiec na na{ata kultura, a Elitis ru~a so nego.
Dali vi e poznat faktot deka okolu 28 ilijadi deca po gra|anskata vojna bea raseleni niz svetot?
Poznat mie dobro ovoj problem. No tie ukradeni deca ne bea samo od Makedonija, zo{to ne be{e mal brojot i na gr~kite deca od razli~ni regioni na Grcija. No ima i edna druga stra{no bolna vistina; monarhofa{istite pod za{tita na kralicata Frederika nasilno gi odzemaa decata od grupite koi treba{e otpatuvaat i gi zatvaraa vo posebni {koli – zatvori koi postoeja nasekade vo Grcija od Solun do Rodos. Site ovie deca bea predodredeni da se pretvorat vo pretorijanska garda i vo jani~ari.
Kako go tretirate padot na demokratskata armija i na general Markos, koj neodamna po~ina?
Toa e slo`eno pra{awe na koe mo`e da se odgovori vo kniga. Denes znaeme mnogu dobro deka Stalin gi ostavi na milost i nemilost gr~kite partizani i deka Tito isto taka ja prekina pomo{ta kon demokratskata armija . Go znaeme i toa deka vo 1949 g. Tito ja ostavi gr~kata armija na monarhofa{istite da vlezat vo teritorijata na Jugoslavija za da gi fatat partizanite od zad grb. Markos za vreme na okupacijata i gra|anskata vojna igra{e dobra uloga. Mislam deka be{e ~esen ~ovek, no i toj ne uspe da go stopira metodot na komunistite za politi~ki likvidacii.
Koi se va{ite spomeni od periodot na voenata huntata vo Grcija?
Diktaturata na polkovnicite be{e tragi~na, no taa be{e pove}e sme{na od kolku opasna. Da, sekako torturara postoe{e toa na site im e poznato. No, tvrdam deka ima{e mnogu pove}e tortura pred polkovnicite vo vremeto na Karamanlis.Toga{ ima{e edna specifika. Karamanlis gi tortura{e samo levi~arite. Koga Padopulos, voda~ot na huntata se osmeli da gi tortura i onie od desnicata, bur`uazijata se najde iznenadena od upotrebata na starata klasi~na tortura vrz samata sebe si. Zna~i sporedbata ne voveduva vo ironija. Vo Grcija torturata nikoga{ ne prestanala. Zatoa nikoga{ vo mojot `ivot ne sum poveruval, ne veruvam i denes deka bur`uazijta e naivna.
Konfliktot me|u ortodoksniot kler i pove}e gr~ki umetnici e prisuten vo 20 vek – primerite so Kazanzakis, posledniot film na Angelopulos…Koe e va{eto li~no iskustvo vo ovoj domen?
Izvesni metropoliti, voaeri od neopravoslavnoto dvi`ewe se obidoa da gi teroriziraat Angelopulos i drugi isto taka dobri sineaisti, kako Frida Ljana. Kavgata na Kazanzakis so crkvata ne e seriozna afera – toj ne be{e nikoga{ revolucioner – na negoviot gbr ima krst od 10 metri. Slu~aite na Roidis, Laskaratos bea mnogu po seriozni i zatoa ovie dvajcata bea zabraneti. Roidis e mo`ebi najzna~ajniot i najkultiviraniot gr~ki pisatel.
Svedoci sme denes na edna masovna manifestacija na gr~kiot {ovinizam na organiziraniot miting vo Solun naso~en protiv internacionalnoto priznavawe na Republika Makedonija, nekoga{nata jugoslovenska republika. Kako gledate na ovoj problem?
Golemiot “naroden” miting vo Solun (organiziran od site politi~ki partii!!!) e edna manifestacija opasna i {ovinisti~ka. @itelite na Solun ne znaat (ili igraat deka ne znaat) {to se toa Slavomakedonci ~ie ime otsekoga{ sme go upotrebuvale. Ako ne postojat nema{e da ima ime za niv. Manifestacijata od prodadenite profesori na Universitetot pravat s# za da go doka`at “grcizmot” na Makedonija koga ne se vo pozicija da go doka`at sami nivniot li~en grcizam.
Ovoa go velam namerno za Karamanlis, koj go zboruva na{iot jazik na eden u`asen na~in (mislam deka majka mu zboruva{e slovenski dialekt, a tatko mu turski) a isto taka i za arheologot Manolis Andronikoglu ili ne{to sli~no…), kako i za site drugi “Grci” od v~era koi od komleks na inferiornost igraat super patrioti i dr`at leksii po patriotizam.
Pretsedatelot na Republika Grcija Konstantin Karamanlis od po~etokot na godinava pi{uva pisma do svoite evropski partneri za da go svrti nivnoto vnimanie kon pra{aweto na Makedonija, kade e roden. Evropa }e go poslu{a ili ne?
Potpisot na Karamanlis ne va`i vo Evropa. Evropa minuva eden period na transpozicija na bolna promena i toa gi uslo`uva balkanskite problemi.
Grcija bez da ima edna strategija na nacionalna politika se obiduva da dejstvuva so mnogu nervozni i grozni~avi diplomatski merki, namesto da zapo~ne da vospostavuva harmonija. Mislam deka Grcija ja izgubi vojnata odnapred. Ona {to dominira vo regionot me|u Balkanot, Crnoto More i Kaspiskoto More e Turcija, koja so edna nevorojatna brzina }e stane golema sila.
Naslovna stranica na spisanieto “Malcinstvata vo Grcija” objaveno neodamna vo Atina vo koe se spomnuva deka “Slavomakedoncite” se treta grupa po brojnost.
Gr~kite politi~ari ne se sposobni da mislat za novite perspektivi i dominirani edinstveno od nivnata ni{to`na taktika se prepu{teni na igrite na nacionalizmot i rasizmot. Gr~kata vlada ja sre}ava{e Dr`avata Makedonija vo mnogu internacionalni komunikacii, no sega dojde migot vo koj tie go negiraat postoeweto na taa dr`ava. Gr~kata vlada e isto taka slepa kako za nadvore{nite, taka i za vnatre{nite problemi.
]e re~am deka mo`ebi ne sme daleku od denot koga Kritjanite }e pobaraat nezavisnost na Krit.
[to zna~i za vas Makedonija?
Kurdite se dvi`at me|u Ermanija i Mesopotanija, pred epohata na Ksenofon. Kurdite ne uspeaja da imaat svoj dom. No Makedoncite uspeaja da sozdadat svoja dr`ava. Novite Grci mislat deka se naslednici na anti~ka Grcija i na Vizandija i deka tie imaat pravo da go koristat kako monopol imeto “Makedonija”. Tie insistiraat da se vika Istambul Konstandinopol…
Moite sonarodnici se obvzani da pijat u{te mnogu gor~livi ~a{i.
Razgovorot go vode{e: Liljana KOTEVSKA
14 Mart 1992 g. EPOHA ( str. 34-36)
Велјановски се сретна со Бадинтер
Utrinski Vesnik, 28 февруари 2009
Претседателот на Собранието Трајко Велјановски, кој во Париз учествува на конференцијата на претседателите на парламентите на земјите од ЕУ и државите кандидати, вчера се сретна со францускиот сенатор и меѓународен правен експерт, Робер Бадинтер. Бадинтер во врска со спорот за името подвлекол дека тој е тежок, бидејќи е апсурден. „Ме изненадува ирационалното однесување на Грција која не ја следи филозофијата на Аристотел“, оценил тој. (МИА)
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