The Israeli land policy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Land_Administration

Most land cannot be bought outright by anyone in Israel, but rather leased from the state. Not sure if it fits with the ideals of the American founding fathers mentioned earlier, but it might be a solution.

In general, I feel that agriculture has to be developed as a national priority, because our farmers need to be competitive on the world market. Otherwise, this decline in rural Macedonia will continue. It is part of the Skopje-centric mentality in the country that rural issues are never given their due.





Since Estonia and Latvia are both EU and NATO members, I'm not sure how it supports your earlier view... but I'm sure there is more to it, and I admit that I don't know much about either country's development in the post-Soviet era.

With a monocultural population of over 20 million, virtual US military protectorate status, and as the successor state of Chiang Kai-Shek's government, the R. of China seems like tough comparison with R. of Macedonia to me.

However, I'm sure you are right that there are lessons to be learned from these countries.

Egejce, Which part of Egejska Makedonija are you from?

Singapore is the same i think Greece is too, you cant buy land you lease it for 99 years.

Albanian birth rate has slowed down alot, its not like it used to be.

I agree. However, I would argue that if there should be a national strategy it would be to reform administration, fight the corruption, and reform the judicial system once and for all and let some of these younger minds take over the local municipalties and then let the local municipalities build local strategies. We need to break from from "nationalized" or centralized strategies. Macedonia has done a great job up until today, they need to continue to decentralize and privatize.



Compare Estonia's boom prior to becoming a EU state to what happened to it's economoy after joining. However, even with their decline after joing the EU both are on course to recover more quickly because of the health of their economies and the economic policies that they follow.

Another good example is Lithuania. It's economy was the biggest of the Baltics, and even continue to grow while in the EU, but since has shrunk 12%! But they too are going to recover much more quickly because their free market polices.

I think that it is endemic (and ironic) that the former Eastern Block nations have adopted more free market oriented economies and are slated to recover more quickly than the so-called western industrialized nations.



First of all, I was talking about Taiwan. And the fact that it is a US military protectorate has nothing to do with the economic policies other than keeping it sheltered from China.

The nation doesn't have to be completely identitical in order to show the positives of a free market economy.

Ortodoxia, welcome to the forum.

In case there was some confusion, I will note that the Republic of China is (commonly known as) Taiwan, not to be confused with the People's Republic of China.

Based on what is written above, I can say that in many respects we have shared views.

Could you perhaps provide some more information on the alleged non-lawful or illegal land purchases in the Western parts of the Republic of Macedonia, and besides judicial reform, where else you see any way of counteracting the shift in the ethnographic balance in favour of the Albanians.

I think you have a hard time accepting the fact that this has always been UMD’s policy. UMD called on the Macedonian Government to get out of the negotiations almost two years before any other Macedonian Diaspora organization. But then again, you know this, and yet you still accuse the UMD as a ““mouthpiece for the vassal politicians of the Macedonian Government”.

Vangelovski, it is very sad what you are trying to do my friend, and it needs to stop. Instead of trying to demonize the UMD and continuing to portray them as the main cause for all of Macedonia’s problems you should focus your energy on demonizing those that need to be demonized, the real enemies of Macedonia. Enough is enough! Don’t you think that it is time to move on? Find another Villain, there are certainly many real ones you can choose from.

Vangelovski, There is a big difference between “stating” a reality and “accepting” a reality. Where in the UMDiaspora post did you read that the UMD “accepts” this reality? Instead of taking things for face value, you keep looking for ways to again demonize the UMD. As far as I know, the UMD never has and never will act as a “mouthpiece for the vassal politicians of the Macedonian Government” Come on you used to be a Board Member of the UMD, you know better than to make such accusations.

I'm overgeneralizing, perhaps, since I've gotten used to any business deal done by an Albanian to be illegal. That is unfair of course, but not out of the question. I think the most recent case would be that big time "pimp" sheep herder that bought all that expensive land illegally. The government recently put all that up for tender. It would be nice if one of our immigrants went and bought it up. Perhaps construct some Orthodox Churches, or set up some military barracks in the area

I believe, also, that a good strategy would be to invest a lot in Eastern Macedonia and then move westward. Crowd in the Albanians. I don't, in all honestly, support any form of ethnic cleansing or shifting. Especially if we can live peacefully with Albanians and they finally start to become loyal. Wishful thinking, eh?

But finally, what I really think Macedonia needs at this moment is just one more pro-Macedonian political party that will mimick the DPMNE platform pretty closely - perhaps even a little more free market oriented, since lets face it, DPMNE is good but not great in that area. And perhaps a party that will say what DPMNE is not allowed to. That there is an alternative to EU, that we should start pulling out of the negotiations, etc. but in a nice, friendly way that won't make the haughty westerners run from us completely. Rhetoric that will make the conservatives respect us. Basically another party that they can form a coalition with in Parliament and then form a government without Albanians.

The Albanians need to learn how to function entirely in the opposition for once, learn that one of their parties in the ruling government isn't a given, and understand that you can still be a meaningful part of society and that it is important in a democracy to have a constructive opposition. If this can happen, I think it can do wonders for their ego and thinking and I believe it help the Albanian people learn they don't have to be "bought" with the rhetoric of conflict every time something doesn't go their way. When they see that they won't melt because they're not in the "Vlada" - they'll abide more. IMHO.

Try again Nikolov. This is the FIRST time UMD has called on the Macedonian Government to withdraw from the negotiations. Show me where they have done this before. For you information, most Diaspora organisations rejected the Interim Accord back in 1995 and even advised the Government NOT to sign the illegitimate agreement beforehand. Nor did many diaspora organisations consider the Government of the time as a legitimate representative of the Macedonian state, because of the electoral fraud that brought it to power.

UMD on the other hand has argued that Greece needs to be more constructive in the negotiations and has even offered alternate names that could be used by Macedonia, while also defending the FYROM terminology as necessary.

Its because I was a UMD Board member that I know UMD accepts the Interim Accord as a "reality" that it believes it needs to live with. Further, UMD has called on Greece to fully implement the Interim Accord, demonstrating that UMD accepts the Interim Accord as a legitimate and valid agreement:

...The United Macedonian Diaspora urges Greece to end its diplomatic blackmail and abide by the rules to which it agreed to in the Interim Agreement...

UMD Media Release
24 February 2008
http://umdiaspora.org/index.php?opti...d=309&Itemid=1

Your constant cries of victimhood are a disingenuous attempt to divert attention from UMD's real policies. I commend UMD's (extremely belated) call on the Macedonian Government to "cease" negotiations - if in fact UMD is sincere about this statement. However, negotiations are only ONE part of the Interim Accord, and UMD is yet to oppose the Accord in its entirety, continuing to avoid the real substance of this Accord and the manner in which it oppresses the Macedonian people.

Well Vangelovski, I am sure you read this Press Release in October 2008: http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/364/9/

Yes, yes, yes, I know that you have read it and I know what you will say…………this only calls for “suspension” of the talks and so on and so on. Well, my answer to you is that since you are so good about reading between the lines when something serves your purpose, why don’t you do the same when something does not serve your purpose.

As far as you statement “Your constant cries of victimhood are a disingenuous attempt to divert attention from UMD's real policies” you should know that this works both ways, but then of course that you know, yet you choose to accuse me of it. You have been playing the “victimhood” card as you call it for a long time know, don’t you think?

I have realized that no matter what I or anyone else tells you about the UMD, it will not change your mind, and you will continue in your quest to undermine the UMD and destroy it, if you can, or at least to damage it as much as possible. My message to you is that it hasn’t worked thus far and it will not work no matter what you say in public forums, so you may as well stop what you have been doing for the last two years and use your time to do something better with it, better for you and better for Macedonia. As an Ex UMD Board Member, you should know better than that.

Your right Nikolov, it only calls for a suspension. Again, I do commend UMD for finally falling into line with the rest of the diaspora, even though it took six years.

If only UMD would stop playing the eternal victim and develop a principled policy position it may eventually play a constructive role for the Macedonian people rather than the DECONSTRUCTIVE role it has played to date.

Perhaps you can bring up the issue of the Interim Accord at the next board meeting and see if you can convince your associates to finally oppose it?

If only you and few others on these forums would stop twisting the truth, we all would be much better off.

It is quite simple. If you like UMD then support UMD. If you like another Macedonian organization, then support that other organization.

Mitreski,

Is that the best UMD can do? Claim that everyone is "twisting" the truth? How about coming up with a solid policy stand on the Interim Accord?

Who is everyone Vangelovski, you and two others ?

Everyone who has ever questioned UMD policy. If its only three of us, why do you feel so threatened?

Will you raise the issue of the Interim Accord and UMD’s support for it at the next Board Meeting?

How are militant Albanians "roped in" by border checkpoints? The smugglers and the UCK are the only ones who in fact don't use them, as the border is already porous. Also, in a borderless Europe, wouldn't illegal economic migrants from Albania and Kosovo would increasingly continue to go to places like Germany and Italy?

And what does "gentle assimilation" mean, in this case? You can't possibly be suggesting that they'll stop being Albanian, or Muslim, because of some "policy" thought up by the government in Skopje, or because there is a border checkpoint here and there...

Albanians whose families have lived among the Macedonians for generations tend to be much more reasonable politically, when compared to the Albanians who originate in Kosovo, and whose experience with Serbian "roping in" tactics has radicalized them.

I believe that the Macedonian culture is a moderate one po priroda, and that's a good thing we should preserve. Unlike our neighbors, we don't have fascist tradition in our history, and I am proud of that. Those who talk about "getting tough" should learn from Serbian mistakes. The moderate way is actually not the easy way, but it is more effective in the long run.




So what is the proposal here? All due respect to the wise John Stuart Mill, but Macedonia already is a multi-ethnic society, and it always has been. It is multi-ethnic on the Greek side of the border as well... that's just a fact... Greeks deny it at their peril, so should we follow their example? The virtues of monoethnic states are pretty irrelevant when you don't have one.




Do you have some examples where this was the case? The only states that I can think of which were destabilized by open borders were illegitimate puppet regimes held together by fear, like the DDR. A strong economy does a hell of a lot more for social cohesion than border guards, anyway.


And what about the Egejci in all of this? Wouldn't open borders would be of great benefit them, and to the Republic... a way to renew the cultural links to our ancestral lands south of the border?

I don't think that EU membership is only way to ease border restrictions on our people going to and from Greece to visit their birthplaces. However, the concept of open borders isn't half as scary as this thread makes it out to be.

If the people on the island of Taiwan want to be called Republic of China, I won't hesitate to call them that.

I wish the EU and Australija had a similar policy regarding the names of states...

I'm not so much afraid of open boarders, rather the quasi-socialist and centralized power structure of the EU. I have a problem with a self-described 'democratic' community, which seeks ethics, principles, and consistency from other nations while not adhering to her own criteria for entrance. Plain and simple, Macedonia has passed the test to enter the EU i.e. obtained ALL of the required benchmarks, it should be let in. Romania and Bulgaria didn't obtain even one of their benchmarks, yet they were marched into the community The fact that the EU is inventing new criteria for Macedonia raises a severe red flag. Serveral years earlier, one of their own, highly respected officials exclaimed that the only two nations of the former Yugoslavia who had met all criteria for independence were Slovenia and Macedonia. And then the EU recognizes Croatia before either of them. Should we go into the blatant and obvious economic failure cover-up that the EU has been perpetuating for years on end?

Furthermore, Lithuania and Estonia, both free-market oriented economies, entered the EU with outstanding economies, both have dropped steadily since their entrance. Greece? Italy? Portugal? Spain? There are several non-EU nations that have lower unemployment rates that Spain, economic failures on end, yet the EU has the audacity to overestimate Macedonia's unemployment rates and hold this against her?

The EU is a pathologically inconsistent and broken model, based not upon reality, free markets, and democracy, but one of ideology, over-sized bureaucracy, duplicity, and two-faced diplomacy. And Macedonia, or any other nation for that matter, has a clear case NOT to seek entrance. Personally, open boarders or not. I would put EU admission on the back burner if I were part of the Macedonian leadership.



Macedonia has always been a mutli-ethnic society. However, from 2002 it went from being a Macedonian nation of the Macedonian People, along with all the other minorities, to a nation of macedonians, albanians, turks, roma, etc. I believe it was purposely done so understanding that the EU would seek to pressure Macedonia to change the name and in doing so, it means a change of identity.

Nicolov,

My concerns about UMD come from a number of very clear statements made by Meto Koloski.

1. Name changes Meto Koloski and UMD find acceptable
2. Meto Koloski's defence of the Interim Accord
3. UMD defence of the 'negotiation process' or 'talks'
4. UMD references to the 2001 war as a movement "for greater human rights" (this is how 'the West' interpret it!)
5. A.Mitreski's proposition that the 'negotiations' are 'necessary' for our admission to the E.U.

Among other things...

To now say that this was never the position of UMD or its board members is to in fact belie the organisations very public statements and comments. I am not concerned so much with the contradictions in your statements, rather with something else. UMD's distaste for "nationalism" in very much the same way that the West has a distaste for Macedonian nationalism, wherever it may occur. My problem with UMD is here. The particular determinants that "the West" use in this case to define "nationalism" are way, way below par, if you consider that the E.U is asking for nothing less than our political extinction. It means that an action that occurs in the defence of our rights, our history, history and culture - actions that have very sound legal, moral, principled and historical basis, could quite easily be branded "nationalistic". Now if UMD is doing everything it can not to appear to be taking a "nationalist line" - as defined by "the West" where does that leave the defence of our country? Up the crapper, if you consider that 'the West' is likely to brand even the most legitimate defence of our people and nation, illegitimate. This apparently "moderate" position UMD have taken against a foe who is asking for nothing less than our extermination, isn't really a position at all. We have enemies who have given us more.