Lately we have heard UMD praise and defend the E.U Institution. I find this defence irresponsible (once again) and dangerous, given various statements released by the European Council and individual members of the Council over the last 15 years or so that clearly reject our nationality, and the name of our State.

Why do UMD defend such an Institution?

How is it possible that UMD can on the one hand support and defend this Institution, and on the other hand denounce the various processes and the structures that the E.U is insisting the Macedonians must continue to be a part of, such as the negotiations ? How can UMD defend an institution that is forcing us to negotiate our nationality and bringing us one step closer to political extinction ?

Characterising UMD as a foriegn policy tool of the West would be only the tip of the iceberg.

Lately, we have also heard much about how becoming a member of the E.U will open our borders, make travel free and even the sensational piece of propoganda that it will "Re-Unite Macedonia" (mp9999)...etc. The case that it will re-unite Macedonia is a piece of propoganda, but such comments need to be documented for history because it is what UMD are all about. These misguided advocates of the West will say just about anything to win Macedonians over to their infatuation with Western clubs.

I can just about guarantee anyone reading this criticism that you will never here anyone at UMD explain to you just how dangerous it is for Macedonia to become a member of the E.U, let alone any serious criticism and action against the policies of the E>C against the Macedonians.

Borders

Inside the Macedonian State there are currently two nations, Macedonian and Albanian. The latter is highly concentrated in the West and South-West and borders two States, where the dominant nation of both is Albanian.
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Meanwhile, the Macedonian nationality is on the negotiating table, and its destruction may actually be put to the test in a vote, if the current government has its way. Our survival has been threatened, and it has taken UMD (How many years to note it ? ).

But if you read its latests "Whereas ..." statements, its defence of the E.U is remarkably consistent. Its support of the Hellenic Republic within the framework of these negotiations, has been remarkabely consistent. It has not come to our defence, specifically, in this regard, ever.

UMD's seemingly grandiose declarations are by nature very vague.

Its defence of the E.U institution, however, is not.

Open borders has a number of terrible consequences for the Macedonian nation.

1. It would be an end to any gentle assimilationist policies still in existence in Western Macedonia. Any hope of "roping in" a concentrated, militant and successionist Albanian minority - would be gone forever. Our inability to hold this region culturally, would divide the State into two nations (if it isn't already).

2. It would open the border to unrestricted immigration which would harm our national interests. This is predictable from what is known about Albanian migration. It would only contribute to the ethnic stratification of Western and South-Western Macedonia for the Albanian nation living there.

3. Note what some of the experts are saying about countries (States) made up of more than one nationality. What does it mean for our democracy ? Democracy becomes illusory, but impractice in effect.

John Stuart Mill


What if that 'Other' nationality is militant, and wants to break away?

4. Open borders means the loss of social and political cohesion

5. Consider the short history of these Albanians who actually move around en masse, to strengthen their ethnic stratification in an area.

In the light of all this consider the statement made by Meto Koloski, recently, that the Albanian nation was fighting for greater human rights in 2001 ? Is that what they were doing ?

The kinds of policies and practices that UMD has been defending are maladaptive to our interests, and entirely out of tune with our survival. Their own personal interests are prioritised in accordance with their infatuation of the E.U and NATO Clubs, rather than in accordance with knowledge of that Club.

Why would an immigration policy platform that underpins the E.U institution - one that would threaten our countries existence, be defended by UMD ?

If Macedonia were to join the EU tomorrow, or in 4 years, it will have an "open border" policy on only two (EU) neighboring countries: Greece and Bulgaria. Take a closer look and you will notice it is actually Aegean and Pirin Macedonia. I think we all want open borders with Aegean and Pirin Macedonia, and this is the main reason why Greece doesn't want us in the EU. We will not have open borders with Albania and Kosovo because they are not EU members, and they won't be for a very very long time.

It is clear that our enemies do not want us in the EU because of who we are. I don't think we should take the same stance as our enemies by keeping Macedonia out of the EU. I want Macedonia in the EU. But only as Macedonia.

What happened between you and the UMD? I want to know it seems only fair.......

Paul Your argument is the same as me accusing the MOC being nothing but Bugaromani, Srbomani, i Grkomani. My priest , instead of promoting a pro Macedonian stance in his sermons, tells me to "turn the other cheek" and to pray for those misguided Greeks who have trespassed against us.

I respect my priest , but I wont take his advice.

UMD have quite a collection of gaffes that too many of you North Americans seem to sweep under the carpet...everything coming out of North America is far from perfect, far from the truth...its vital to question and to critique in this environment.

Some here including the administrator of this site because of his personal relationships with UMD acts as a gag on all criticism of UMD.

In recent days here on Maknews we've had a UMD board member (mvb9999) pretending he has nothing to do with UMD, this is the lie that these guys live everyday of the week...unfortunately for some misguided reason the north americans don't see the charade...norr the devestating implications it poses for the Macedonian people

The simple fact that you portray this entire issue as "North American" shows what little knowledge you have of the issue...

I personally don't care for you Phoenix, and we have had this discussion before, but you really need to stop your anti-American crusade, and start working on getting Australia to recognize Macedonia before you even think to tell me that us American's don't understand the issues. Get your OWN house in order before you tell me to fix mine... You can curse at me all you want, but you don't mean anything when you cannot achieve anything yourself.

Us North Americans are unified in our relentless work on pro-Macedonian initiatives (whether you consider them so or not), while it seems you Phoenix, are more concerned with chastising those that disagree with your skewed notions rather than helping your own community to overcome it's divisions.

To anyone this message may offend besides Phoenix, I apologize, this is only directed at him, and not at anyone else.

And compare to some of you Aussies, who act and behave in a similar fashion as radical islamists, north americans don't walk around preaching about "civilized discussions", only to resort to uncivilized discussions.
You have been the poster boy in this department of preaching "civilized discussions".

If "mvb9999" says he has nothing to do with UMD, we should take his word for it. Your Aussie radical buddy (author of this thread) posted claims that I had something to do with UMD, and even alluded to being a UMD board member. And you jumped right on it - So who is spreading lies?


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UMD have their faults, theres no doubt about that but to think that an idiot like you would hold a board position is in the realms of fantasy...

Paul and Phoenix - can you reveal to us which Macedonian organizations you are representing or are affiliated with?

I am convinced now that you are not Macedonians, no Macedonian would ever do what you have been doing and continues to do. And if you are Macedonian, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Some people here are against joining the EU. I personally straddle the fence on this one.

I think your attacks on UMD are personal. I believe this because, if UMD are as misguided as you claim, you would be spending your time attacking the sell-out media outlets in Macedonia and the political parties that support a name change.

UMD has done more to support a "no-name change policy" than all of us here on Maknews as individuals.
Macedonians need to be unified, not argueing against each other on who is boss.

Paul - if you such a big supporter of protectionism and the "North Koreanization" of Macedonia why are you wasting time selling the idea here?

Neither the UMD or the diaspora would make the decisions related to what you suggest. The only parties, in your scenario, that you need concern yourself with are the Macedonian politicians and the Macedonian voting public. While what we say or do in the diaspora may be interesting to some the UMD stance or lack of doesn't change anything.

Isn't your obsession with the UMD personal? What vested interest do you represent? Did someone declare that it's "open season" on critisizing other Macedonian organizations. Since you seem to be such an expert on the Macedonian issues what group do you belong to? Should we all now resort to tearing down other Macedonian organizations - including the ones you may be involved with?

The UMD are doing an excellent job and deserve our support and respect. We don't need agenda-driven naysayers, like Vangelovski, Paul and Phoenix, to tell us which organization is good, and which organization deserves our support. Save your twaddle for the lemming brigade.

UMD, there will always be groups and their puppets who will try to smear you and misrepresent what you stand for. Just disregard them and keep pushing forward.

What are members of UMD actually thinking, with regard to the name ?

Here is a sample just a few days old.

A Macedonian patriot disgruntled at UMD and at the Macedonian government for supporting the name negotiations, had said this to Buktop.

The Macedonian name is non-negotiable.

Buktops response.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/sh ... tcount=137

Is this UMD member working for the Greeks? Is he even a Macedonian ?

UMD is FULL of Macedonians (if he is in fact a Macedonian), who have been shitting all over us for a number of years now including this UMD stooge.

Who are you trying to fool with that rubbish?

The E.U doesn't want us in the E.U because of who we are.

This European Council has stated explicitly that:

1. It does not recognise our name, therefore our history, people and culture
2. We have no choice, but to change it

It is clear who our enemies are, and "where" they are !

The only way our country can progress, can move foward is to disengage from a negotiation process, and call on the this CLUB to account for its hard line stance against our history, against our culture and our nation.

Our enemies are the people defending this monster, tooth and nail and bullshitting Macedonians about the illusory benefits we are all supposed to get. All UMD have done is dangle a huge carrot (an illusory one) in front of the faces of Macedonians, promising them the world - by joining this CLUB. That is all that is happening here. I would probably hazard a guess because they have alot to gain from it personally and professionally.

Is it too much to simply ask for our rights in law, and draw the line there? For years now we have had to listen to Meto Koloski and UMD sell the negotiation process, sell everything that has brought our little country down to its knees, by spinning the line that it is necessary, talking up terms like "progress" and other terms like "future" and "Integration" ...etc. Don't you morons realise that for years now you have been talking up and defending institutions, structures and processes, that have us crawling ?

Yes, we know who are enemies are, and where they are without a doubt.

On the issue of borders:

When you say "We want open borders" Who is that ? UMD ? You have a militant secessionist minority concentrated in the south-west and West of the country, and you want open borders ? Albania WILL become a member of the E.U - sooner or later. What then ?

Does the "We" want to divide the State further ?

I mean who are you actually defending, the interests of militant Albanians ? I think it is worth noting again that Meto Koloski had made it clear that the Albanians were fighting for greater human rights in 2001. Some UMD moron even had the nerve to say "Well, what would you call it? "

I think I made myself clear that I want Macedonia in the EU but only as Macedonia.

But that got me thinking, you live in Australia, right? Why did you choose to live in a country that does not recognise our name, therefore our history, people and culture? A country that at one time tried to label our people as "Slavmacedonian"? A country that just recently accused Macedonians of "stealing Greek history"?


Are you sure?

Paul, you are a moron, and I dare you to prove any of those outrageous allegations you have made. Why don't you go ahead and post the full post, and the post it was made in response to?

You are a liar and you need to stop your bullshit propaganda...

SNikolov, why do UMD board members equate any criticism of UMD with some sort of imagined anti-Macedonian crusade?

Those of us critical of UMD are concerned with the direction your organization proposes to take Macedonia. Unlike the UMD, the vast majority of concerned Macedonians refuse to entertain any notion of name change as your president has previously expressed as acceptable.
As a concerned Macedonian I’m disturbed by your lack of policy in many areas concerning the Macedonian nation and its people around the world, your silence is too often deafening, too difficult to ignore and impossible to accept.

Your organization is too cosy with Macedonia’s enemies, the Americans, the siptari, the corrupt and the self-serving.
Your concerns shouldn’t be about any concerned individual taking Macedonia to Hell because Hell is an idyllic Pacific island compared to where UMD is recklessly taking Macedonia.

SNikolov, you seem to have a God fearing obsession with infernal places but you and your organization continue to tread in a dark place, much like Alighieri’s journey, lost in a dark wood and hounded by three beasts, no evasion possible nor path to salvation.

You see SNikolov, UMD’s journey is akin to Dante Aligheri’s ‘Devine Comedy’, a look at what Hell is really like.
In Dante’s Inferno there seems to be a place for UMD in any one of his depicted 9 circles of suffering...just place the sign on UMD HQ...”Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here”.

Interestingly, there seems to be a fitting place for UMD in any of the 3 sins that define Dante’s version of Hell, a nice little place for the Self-Indulgent, The Violent and The Malicious...

I see your place in inner circle number 8, that is reserved for the Frauds, there you can pick the Bolgia of your choice, if the shoe fits, so to speak...

#1 is reserved for the’ pimps and seducers’
#2 for the ‘flatterers’
#4 is for the “Sorcerers, astrologist’...and my favourite ‘the false prophets’
#5 is a place for the ‘corrupt politicians’
#6 for ‘the hypocrits’
#7 for ‘the thieves’
#8, another of my favourites for you and is reserved for ‘the fraudulent advisers and evil councillors’
#10 is a gem, you’ll fit in nicely with ‘the falsifyers and the impersonators’

Then we have the inner most circle, the 9th and final circle, dedicated to ‘Betrayal’...
SNikolov, eternity is a very fuckin’ long time pal... enjoy.

Phoenix - your last post is proof that you truly have lost your mind. Your only purpose here ( along with Paul ) is to sow the seeds of doubt in the Macedonian diaspora. You clearly represent organizations that seem to think they have something to lose with a strong UMD.

Brother you are in some serious need for spiritual counselling. Your obsession with the UMD has reached a dangerous level when you are suggesting that the actions of UMD are akin to Dante's inferno? Are you Catholic?

Instead of creating a smoke-screen why don't you answer my earlier question as to which organizations you represent. Don't give me this " I am here as an individual " bull shit either. You have been sent to launch a coordinated attack on the UMD by an organized group. You and Paul have made one miscalcuation though - I can't speak for Australian Macedonians but I know in Canada people don't like to be "told" what to think.

Brandy, you seem to have worked it all out...do tell, who am I "representing" and who are these organizations that have something to lose with a strong UMD?


Brandy, I think too much alcohol has killed the last of your small number of brain cells...I think my Dante post was way over your head...


You're a drunken clown mate...lol...the ideal UMD fodder

Hi Phoenix - excellent comebacks! I just find it ironic for someone that seems to reject all western institutions you choose to promote a westernized view of " the punishing God" and a western view of the concept of Hell. I would suggest that if you are Orthodox Christian you study your own Orthodox beliefs when it comes to these matters.