Hellene

H->X different orthography for the same sound
x -> k`s
The Latin consonants, except as noticed below, were pronounced more or less as they generally are in English.
Notice for letter x :

x was pronounced ks, as in English extra (not gz as in examine, nor kz as in exonerate).

*Xellene
K`S ellene
i->e ->je
''` sellenje
“`Selenje

Explanation for the word selenje as it given at Macedonian-English dictionary is:
selenje n. removal, resettling ,migration

Ref: Dušan Crvenkovski,Branislav Gruić “Dictionary English-Macedonian,Macedonian-English“, Naša Kniga,Skopje,1993...p.918

-S. A. Handford and Mary Herberg “Latin-English ,English -Latin dictionary” Berlin and Munich ,Germany, 1955,1966 … p.8-9

--------------------------
Selenje or Migration -explanation of:

Migrātiō, ōnis f removal, migration; change of meaning.
Migrō 1 a) to remove, depart, emigrate (ab, ex, de re in or ad alqd);
b) trans. to transport; to transgress.

Ref: S.A. Handford and Mary Herberg “Latin-English, English -Latin dictionary” Germany 1955, 1966.Berlin and Munich … p.200

migrant n 1. a person or animal that moves from one region, place or country to another .
2. an itinerant agricultural worker. ~ adj.
3. moving from one region, place or country to another; migratory.
migrate vb.(intr.) 1. to go from one place to settle in another, esp. in a foreign country.
2.(of birds, fishes, etc.) to journey between different habitats at specific times of the year.[C17: < L migrare to change one’s adobe] –mi’grator n.
migration n. 1.the act or an instance of migrating. 2. a group of people, birds, etc. migrating in a body.
3. Chem. a movement of atoms, ions, or molecules, such as motions of ions in solution under the influence of electric fields. –mi’grational adj.
migratory adj.1. of or characterized by migration. 2. nomadic; itinerant

Ref. “The new Collins concise dictionary of the English language”. London & Glasgow 1987…p.714-715
Standard ISBN 0 00 433091-9
Indexed ISBN 0 00 433070-6

The ancient Greeks were not 'sun worshippers' traditonally [the sun god, Hellene was a late adoption], according to E.Craik in her book 'The Dorian Aegeans'. 'Hellenus' was a cult of the sun on the fringe of ancient Greek society and there are references to this cult as 'barbaric'. I have heard of the so called 'Celtic'[?] sun God 'Bellenus' but I don't know about the connection. I would guess that 'Bellenus' was likely to be a Slavic Sun God too. My guess is it was adopted by the Greeks - hence the change in letters from 'B' to 'H'. The 'Hellenus' Sun worship was described as 'native' [ie not Greek], but by late antiquity or around 200 BC, it was adopted so widely by the Greeks that references began to appear of them as 'Hellenes'. But they were calling these Sun Worshippers, about 3 centuries earlyer 'barbarians' and 'natives' and 'non-Greeks'.

p.

Mi^gratio=Grætio=Greece

Text below have its part to give some examples of letter m changes into ancient dialects of the Hellenes ,and some changes parallel between them and Latin langue,


Changes of μ, esp. in dialects:
III
2. Aeol., as αμμες υμμες єμμα єμμι for ημєις υμεις єιμα the vowel or diphtong before it being shortened, Greg. Cor.p. 597 ; - αμμες and υμμες also in Hom.and Ep.

III. μ is freq. added or left out, acc. to dialects,
1. at the beginning of a word as αρυω μηρυω, ια μια ,ονθυλєυω μονθολєυω, οσχος μοσχος , οχλєυς μοχλєυς , υραξ μυραξ ,μαλη Lat. ala Buttm.Lexil. v.ουλαι 4. Lob. Phryn. 356; so ΄΄Αρης , Lat.Mars, ανηρ, Engl. man.



Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott “Greek-English Lexicon” ,London,1896… p.953

Grætia=Græcia

The Latin consonants… except as noticed below, were pronounced more or less as they generally are in English.
Notes for letter t :
t (ratio) always had its proper sound; ra-ti-ō was pronounced as it is written ( not with the sound of sh as in English rational, nor with the sound of ts, although in many Italian words t has been replaced by a z which is pronounced as ts – e.g. giustizia from Latin iūstitia ).


Ref: S. A. Handford and Mary Herberg “Latin-English ,English -Latin dictionary” Berlin and Munich ,Germany, 1955,1966 … p.8-9

From here we can notice that in a lot of Italian words letter t has been replaced by a z ,which is pronounced as ts.
We could compare not only example of the word iūstitia- giustizia, but at the words Dalmatia pronounced as Dalmatsia ,Croatia, pronounced as Croatsia, in my mother tongue written as Dalmacia, pronounced the same as well.
This letter deviation reality could be taken as example to analysed letter t deviation at the word gratio.
GraTio
t->ts-c
*Gratio->*Grætio->*Gratsio->*Grætsio –>*Græcio-Greece
Gratio pronounced as Gracio and this days spelt as Greece with the meaning same as Hellene

Hellene and Greece two different words meaning one and the same
at two different languages .
Hellene= Selenje in Macedonian
Greece = Migration in Latin

Hi Paul

This is text borrowed from a syba list

This is my option over the possible root for the word helios
By splitting of x into two diphthongs as k's
We have situation <he:lios> from *k’se:li: os
When changes of <e-je-ije> into the supposed deviation ,will be included then
*k’s e : li : os
*k’s ije : li : os
After the cutting of the beginning <k> and removing of Greek’s suffix <os>
’s ije : li –>*sijæ :li ->*sijali –sijal with the meanings
sijal or sj æ->sjaj
Meaning of sjaj as it is presented in “The Standard English-Macedonian,Macedonian-English Dictionary“,..p.922
sjae- v. to shine ,to glimmer,to glitter,to blaze,to dazzle ,to glare,to beam ,to irradiate
sjaj –m.radiance ,briliancy,brightness,(fig.)splendo(u)r,blaze,dazzle,beam.
<sjae :l> would have the meaning of „use to shine“ in singulare
<sjae:li > would have the plural meaning of it

My opinion is that in the case of <helios> it’s about of deviation of the word
<sjae >
what been adopted from the incomming tribe groups as soon as they had arrived in Macedonia ,in their ,now days called Greek version ,by adding of the suffix <os >

s jae:li + os
s iae : li : os
s e : li : os
k’s e : li : os
x e : li : os
he : li : os
That <helios> as the word does not have so called Helenistic root we can compare even with their modern days mother tongue.

Regards

Homer MakeDonski

That's really interesting Homer thanks.

I've met a few girls who are from the Adriatic coasts (Montenegro and Croatia) who have had the name 'Ksenija'...just to add.

You have to admit this is just a guess but at least it is a clever one. Does anyone know when Greek speaking people first arrived in the South Balkans? Clearly the ancient Greek speaking populations were historically found near the shores and may well be immigrant populations.

Do we have any idea who was living there before their arrival?

One up one a time use to be a guess that the words itself could tell us more about itself then we know about them.Than I have start my researches straight into the words ,strating with our mother tongue ,keeping the rools of comparative methodology ,and trying from the present go walk as far at the past as I can.
After the breaking of the <x> into <ks>
rest is more or less technical matter of colonialism in its primary incoming process

Wait until I found out meaning for Yananli, Yanan ,Yananistan, as Eastern world is calling them
:wink:

Hi Dejance
They are historical ref.that Hellenes use to call themselfs as Ksenos ,what should be with the meaning of strangers.For sure that thay have a reason for it at the new arriving and colonised lands.
Ksenia could be personal name out of that word <ksenos>

The turks are calling the grekos "Yunanistanians" bcs they'r new/young state.This i think is from June wich is young cow(i think).

About Helios - i said this once but i'll repeat it- Il was the anc macedonian word for sun and god.From here we have Ilija Ilinden Ilinka.From here we also have Ilion (Troy) and Ilijada. Helios is just a grekocization of these terms. And, we also say ILI for OR (oro,ora(zlato,lugje,krug))wich is another exmpl of the code in our tongue,as the tongue is well aware that God is neither YES neither NO,but its ILI.

Jesus on the cros mentioned ILI as the name of his God also.

I am pretty sure Yunanistan is related to Ionians. But "young cows" makes a bit more sense. Although, I really want to know to say "dirty pigs" in greko ... I reckon we will have the answer. :wink:

Risto the Great

It is preaty easy: Yanan = Danan, Yananli = Danaoi This is how they were called in Homeric Time, thus old form from Doiden = New Comers.


Don = place
Dno = bottom
Dom=home

donnese

nese = nose = bring
don = the place where it should be brought

etc.

Dan= place, home, reference to the name giver,

a

oi = walk, go

Someone who came to the place from somewhere else here at the place of the reference.

My guess based on the fact that the Turks (Anatolians) mostly assimilated the Phrygian population, there are many Phrygian words included in the Turk language........ Bit Mental Gymnastic....

Yune or "young cow" is interesting though too,

So fare I will stay at the RTG explanation ,same as the one above, with "an accent mark" on
the dates back at the time,what that author has made




ref: Valentyn Stetsyuk
Research of Prehistoric Ethnogenetical Processes in Eastern Europe
Book 2
Lviv 2003
Traces of Linguistic Contacts in Türkic and Indo-European Vocabularies
Internet source:

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/ ... reekEn.htm

mk


just wonderfull

Usually all the enigmatical thinks are as simple as they could be
just know-how way
Diphthongs of <d> letter:
-dz
-dj pronaunce as dy



Danaoi-Yananli ,Hellenes,Greeks,...all the same by the meaning


Thanks

Just wondering
Achaean =Ahai -Ahaj-ci
How the Slovac,or Polish people will say for "to come " or "to come here"

Priyahal maybe ?

You are right about:

dj = dy, here is the rabbit

this is also interesting case:

Slavic
MI = US as a Group, Serb, Croats, Bosnians still use MI = US First Person Plural, we say NIE where character M is substituted with character N

common substitution is also G with K
Think Slovenian :greta or greha = moving, going
Serbian kreta = moving
MK dialekt kinisa = to set of, go away

include the IE root for walking, moving

in German: gehen = going
kriechen = crow


The interesting is that only in Slavic the suffix MI has any meaning, while by the others is missing.

So Mi-gration would be Group Movment, Going and since the suffix MI has only meaning in Slavic, could be safe to say it has Slavic roots.

just a thought.

As standardized form ,that is correct.

Still, dialectical form,and today for <us> = < nie> is <mie> as well at the western Macedonian dialects



I have been trying on this way
TrGnuva -TrKnuva
but ,because it was not well based ,and a bit of unlogical ..I have stopped moving forward,something what reading your example,I shouldn't.
Well done Mk

And just to add

In Italian case is
Mio =moe = meaning of mine
Io = I
but that's could be verb case of the Macedonian
moego = belong to me
mo/ego
mo-mio -mine in Italian
ego-I - in present days Greek language

Might be some truth in this. Do you recall the inscriptions on the Rosetta Stone. Among the Macedonian words 'gospodari' I recall the word 'Danan'. I havn't been able to find the post I saw on this forum about it. I'm sure it is here somewhere.

p.

I do not know if I should open a seperate thread about the name of the river Dragor in Bitola.... but here goes.... it is partely related to this topic.


As we all know the name of the river in Bitola is named DRAGOR, what does this name mean?

I have a theory about the name, the name is the short version of YDRAGORAS. The name Ydragoras is mentioned in this source "Ancient Geography of Macedonia by Demetsas, Margarites from 1874"

It is also mentioned here in this more recent source:
"Επιστρέφουμε στο Μοναστήρι. Η πόλη σχηματίζει περίπου ένα Τ. Στη δυτική πλευρά το βουνό και στην ανατολική ο κάμπος της Πελαγονίας. Η οριζόντια κεραία τού Τ είναι ο ποταμός Ντραγκόρ (Υδραγόρας) και ορίζει τις προς Βορράν μουσουλμανικές φτωχογειτονιές. Ο δρόμος από την Οχρίδα ακολουθεί τον Ντραγκόρ."
http://tovima.dolnet.gr/print_article.php?e=B&f=12417&m=C22&aa=1

So why is this apparent "Greek" name of the river of importance?

DRAGOR is the short form of yDRAGORas.

And this is what makes the cookie crumble.......

YDRA=In Ancient Greek is WATER, in modern it is called NERO.
GORA=In Macedonian is MOUNTAIN. As an exampel we have Crna GORA=Montenegro=Black Mountain.

Thus the meaning of YdraGoras=Water from the mountain. Quite logical. Because the water in the Dragor stems from the springs in Mount PELISTER.


We have an apparent semi-"slavic" word in Ancient times...... how come? Could it be that the Ancient Macedonians are the same people inhabeting Macedonia today.........


And a question to my fellow compatriots, can we find more clues like this??? Of course we can.... just look around you.... Our Macedonia is full of them....... another hint..... what is the name of Ancient ANTIGONEA nowadays?????