here on the stone of rosetta for example

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bOdwDvtHHAU

Would this hellp:

http://www.maknews.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 67&start=0

The Text

How to read
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In the uper right Corner stands Macedonian Tsar. It is from the Life of Naum IX Century. He compares the Roman,Babilonian and Macedonian Kings with the Satan.




Most of this Texts are kept in the Churches, and can not be seen in Museum or Library.
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The one is from here

It describes the Juristdiction of the Ohrid Archibishopric.



GLAGOLET SE MAKEDONIA, I KAODANIE, MISIE GORNEE, SIRJE' O
IS CALLED MACEDONIA, AND CAODANIA, UPPER MYSIA, SEE OF

Can you kindly explain why do you need this stuff?

for smart assing around i guess :lol:

kako si bosanac, nema te!

I could think of it, but wanted to hear from her, since she kindly received the asked hellp!

dobar, hvala na pitanju. kako me nema brate, tu sam, tu i tamo nesto napisem. jesi ti dobar? pozdrav

pa nisam te video neko vreme ovde. mozhda sam ti promashio post

kod mene sve ok, posao kuchi, normalan zhivot

budi pozdraven.

A couple things to note about modern Greek historiography.

1. The use (frequency) and meaning (identity) of the term 'Macedonia' in Greek historiography has been applied retrospectively. There has never been a ''Macedonian identity'' that is also ''Greek'' and efforts to create such a new identity are generational. The fruits of this new identity construction are only beginning to appear in the youths of modern Greeks in the last few decades. Historically, it has no precedent in the sense that we can't point to any long term normative historical processes at a cultural level that demonstrate this new identity has a basis in reality. It is in other words a very modern 'ideological' construct. In fact the 'Star of Vergina' was adopted as a national symbol of 'Greece' only AFTER Macedonians recognized it as their own.

2. At least a dozen prominent 19th century Greek historians make no mention of Macedonia.

3. In addition to point 2, there is a strong body of evidence that demonstrates that the events and peoples of modern Greece over the last 200 years beginning with the so called 'War of Independance' have been deliberately falsified. This abuse of normative historical processes was first brough to the attention of the world by 19th century Greek historians writing about the 'War of Independance'. The entire account is based on shameless lies.

4. On historical grounds the modern Greek claim to 'Macedonia' is an anachronism.

5. On legal and technical grounds the modern Greek claim to a part of 'Macedonia' have no base.

6. When King George of Greece in official diplomatic correspondence said "There are very few Greeks in Macedonia" he demonstrated the historical and critical non-Greek character of ethnic Macedonia.

And those who do mention Macedonia say about the Greek war of Independence: "Greece was liberated after more than 2000 years when it was enslaved by the Macedonians, after the defeat and enslavement of Greeks in the battle of Cheronia."

right on suhin my greek macedonian brother at last i can use that word in the correct context.

[/quote]Paul wrote:
2. At least a dozen prominent 19th century Greek historians make no mention of Macedonia.

And those who do mention Macedonia say about the Greek war of Independence: "Greece was liberated after more than 2000 years when it was enslaved by the Macedonians, after the defeat and enslavement of Greeks in the battle of Cheronia."[quote][/quote]

Thats true Suhin:

By the way VERGINA, "thankx for informing us" for the reasons you needed this HELP TOPIC!!

Wow, as per usual a lot of fluff and no substance. At least this time you have refrained from using your usual words such as 'colonial discourse', good for you!



Of course this is your biased personal opinion. The descriptors 'Macedonia' and 'Macedonian' held no ethno/national significance until the 19th century. There are a myriad of modern and contemporary texts that describe this for us. Up to that period, and ever since, the descriptors 'Macedonia' and 'Macedonian' were used as regional/geographic descriptors by the populace, regardless of ethnic/national orientation, including Greeks. As an example I present the first hand account of one John Cook (M.D), whose account interchanged Greeks with Macedonians and implied that Greece included Macedonia.

Cook's account was produced in 1770, at least half a century before the period that maknews 'historians' claim that a Greek nation and ethnos was manufactured by Otto et al using a seemingly!! bamboozled population.

(a side note: a description, including credible references, of the social and political mechanisms used for this mass transformation ..no Greeks to millions of Greeks within a few decades.. has never been produced by the local historians who promote this theory btw.)

This non Greek example, written decades befor the formation of a Greek state, contradicts Mr. Paul's opinion that There has never been a ''Macedonian identity'' that is also ''Greek''.





This is yet one more non-Greek example that completely contradicts the mythical historiography which suggests that 'Macedonia' and 'Macedonians' were always regarded as mutually exclusive from Greece and Greeks.


PS - I have examples of documentation that describes Greeks at Padua, perhaps the maknews historians can muster up some examples of an ethnic Macedonian community studying at Padua during the Ottoman period?

I already posted documents from the 17th century showing that 'Macedonian' was used in both an ethnic and national sense. There is no shortage of this kind of evidence, but it doesn't seem to register in your 'Hellenic' brain. It's not our fault that the sources you cite are unaware of these things.

MK showed you that 'Makedonia' has been used by the indiginous Macedonian people for at least 1100 years. Perhaps it would have been smarter if Ms Vergina didn't open her mouth, but then she is a fanatic and can't see the obvious either.

Your original point was that Macedonians didn't have any sense of Makedonia and only identified with their village or town. Forgive me, but that was a rather dumb claim and you set yourselves up for a kick in the head.

You're dancing, you keep coming up with evidence that the obvious isn't true. You still can't see that Macedonians are Macedonian and have been for a very long time. It's not the job of a Greek apologist to see anything, anyway. Is it, Mr. Philipou?

I must say your position has moved a long way from the days when your kind claimed that 'Tito invented the Macedonians'.

You've come up with so many different false stories about who the Macedonians are that I can't even keep track of them anymore.

Don't strain so hard, the ignorant grkomani don't really care what you say, just show them some pretty picture of the cover of a book and they'll instantly go on their knees and pray to their new Hellenic god.

With us, however, you have no chance. We know who we are, and we know who today's Greek speakers are. We're not new immigrants to the South Balkans or recent converts to the bullshit Hellenism that you all treat as a cult. And a dirty, racist cult it is.

Keep dancing.

Wow, now we have claims that a Macedonian nation and ethnos existed during the 1600s, and much of this claim is derived from some sasquatch style spottings of 'Macedonians' in Russian and Ukranian archives as if this is definite proof that the descriptor was used in an ethnic sense. What makes this even more laughable is that in the other thread you mocked Greeks for 'scouring' books to prove their claims!

If the Macedonian ethnos dominated the region for centuries, as your claims suggest, you would not have to resort to scouring through the archives of foreign countries. I ask you which modern objective historian suggests that a Macedonian national identity and or ethnos has existed since at least the 17th century? Is international academia that stupid that they cannot see what you claim is supposed to be obvious? Furthermore, if your people dominated the demographics of the region for centuries we should have volumes of historical texts consisting of first hand accounts of visitors to the region during the early 19th century, and before, that describe such populations. According to the local historiography such a Macedonian population must have composed large portions of the population in Skopje and 'Solun', two cities that were visited by countless contemporary writers. Go ahead, provide the evidence of major ethnic Macedonian populations in Skopje and 'Solun' prior to 1850...come on, all of the authors that I have posted, according to you were dummies...so lets see your smart authors from pre 1850...




My claim is that large segments of the slavic speaking peasantry originally had no sense of an ethno national identity. This is not only my claim. This position is put forth by modern scholars such as L.Danforth and contemporary writers which I have quoted several times.



I challenge you to produce one post where I claimed Tito invented the Macedonians. Stop making things up.



As if the fact that your grandparents lived in the region 100 years ago gives you some sort of intrinsic knowledge of the truth Stop saying 'we'. How long have you personally lived in the south balkans? You are a jaded x-th generation diaspora nationalist living in Canada who is an anti-Hellene. You have absolutely no substantiation for most of your claims. Tell us again which historians claim Otto et al manufactured millions of Greeks in a region where no Greek ethnicity existed.

It has been demonstrated to you that Macedonians have associated themselves and been associated with their homeland, ‘Makedonia’, for a long time. As you know, the new Christian immigration into Aegean Macedonia from the 1920s onward has no connection to historical Macedonia.

Today newcomers outnumber indigenous Macedonians and they control the power of the state. We have become ghosts in our own ancestral homeland, your cultural genocide of the Macedonian people has been horrific. We can't speak our mother tongue any more and we aren't even allowed to call ourselves by our true name.

The notion you try to propagate, that the Macedonian identity was invented by Bulgarians or Serbs or Tito, etc., is nonsense. The truth is that the new ‘Greek speakers’, the Serbs and the Bulgars all worked diligently to convert Macedonians to their own political ideologies. No one ‘gave’ us our Macedonian identity. Unlike our Southern Neighbours, we had no government to ‘invent’ an identity for us.

You scavenge 19th century books looking for the word ‘Greek’ as if that historical term is representative of the people who live in Greece today – the vast bulk of whom are only there because Otto opened the gates of his new kingdom to immigration.

I’m still waiting for you to show me where the ‘Greek speakers’ of Athens self-described as ‘Hellenes’ before Otto converted them to his fascist ideology.

How good can the new Hellenic cult be when at its core it teaches people to hate who they truly are and accept a false identity? You force people to pretend to be Greek and punish those who refuse? What’s so ‘glorious’ about that?

the word greek has exsisted especially amongst western historians, greek ethnicity is another think vergina.

unless you think when those same "greeks" called them selves as romai arnauti vlachi christiani ezeriti etc etc. they really meant to say hellenes. chris you and most greeks look at history backwards and tick the boxes they think will make it look as they wished it did.

the hellenic identity was changed so dramatically as to be unrecognisable . different ethnicities a new religion culture and language what maked them greek is 1824 and the establishment in the geographic area known as hellas an orthodox christian nation who replaced their native languages by the language of their church and then embarked on this never ending story of denial on the one hand and insatiable glory seeking on the other.

Vergina, today's 'Hellenic' identity is practiced like a cult. That's not the same thing as saying there is no 'Greek' ethnicity, that's a different can of worms.

Modern Greece is an immigrant nation in the same way that Australia and Canada are. A Bavarian king established a kingdom there in the 1820s and opened it up to immigrants. Modern Greeks are far and away the newest kids in the Balkans -- even though your pretentious mythologies cast you as the descendants of the ancient Greeks.

As for the Macedonians, they've had 1500 years living together in Macedonia. You do the math.

And USA.

Yea, they all call themselves Americans - but there are Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Afro Americans etcetc

So is there an American, Canadian or Australian ethnos???

I can understand why maknews toes the 1500 years line, let him be - but even with that line we have the same right to b Macedonians as the English have to be Englishman. Go tell to an Angloman he cant call his country Anglia anymore.

As good 'greeks' i suposse u all heard about the myth of Sysiph. Was that the guy who kept pushing a stone to reach the peak of the mountin but cud not succed cuz he was cursed?Or was he the other cursed guy with water and fruits around him, but he cud never get to eat/drink??

Your battling a Sysiphean battle. Unwinable one by default. Especially in 2008.