Thank you for your answer, Inca. It was very enlightening to me.

As for a book : There is was "Les anciennes Macedoniens" by JEAN KALLERIS in French. I suppose you know French, living in Montreal. This book contains all survived ancient Mac words and their etymology, as the author sees it, of course.

I do not know if you can find it now, though.

No brother I have not overlooked it. What I wanted to know is which part exactly of Ancient Greece did you talk about? There was a whole load of people back then living there and none of them would of called them selves Greek? So did the Macedonians call themselves Dorians, Ionians or Aeolians or something else? How far back exactly are we going?

So if the Ancients Macedonians were 'greek' what are the current Macedonians?

osiris, I agree about the scholars. Andreas is a funny [bunch of] man [men].

Come on Makedonci, Ortholog... Oops I mean Inca here wants to know about the history of our nation and the only one explaining it to him is the Greek in the office next to Kosta.

#1
They ALL called themselves HELLENES, the foreigners called them Greeks.
In the Olympics, beginning 796 b.C., you had to prove you are a HELLEN to take place. Alexander I of Macedonia proved he was a HELLEN and took part in the Olympics.
Dorian, Aeolians, Ionians were all Greek tribes, speaking dialects of Greek with slight difference in accent : E.g. "ΣΕΛΗΝΗ"- Ionian, "ΣΕΛΑΝΑ" - Dorian.
You can find all the above in any of the numerous books on ancient Greece.

#2
They called themselves Macedonians, as the Dorian Greeks in Sparta called themselves Lakedaimonians or the Dorian Greeks in Crete called themselves Cretans.
Lakedaimonians, Cretans, Athenians, Macedonians : They denote your birthplace, not your ethnicity, this was common, HELLENIC.(*)

#3
I have said it 100 times. After 2500 years, the modern Macedonians are the mix of ancient Macs, Greeks, Dardanians (Thracian tribe), Paeonians (Thracian tribe), Slavs (mainly, hence the language) and all the others who passed and stayed in the land.

The same holds for Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians etc
*************************************************************

(*) Provided it will be FULLY PROVED ancient Macs were Greeks. As I have noted, this is more probable, but still research is needed.

I am sure you missed the answer of INCA about what they were taught in elementary and High School in Peru, or about what he heard from his parents.

He said thet he was tauhgt 'MACEDONIANS WERE GREEKS WHO SPREAD THE GREEK CIVILIZATION".

This fully corroborates what I have posted many times in the past (I mentioned infos from Russia of today) :
That the whole world still learns that ancient Macs were Greeks.

This may be not true, as I have stressed, but the fact that in far away Peru they teach that : ancient Macs=Greeks points to the following possibilities :

a) Greek propaganda has conquered the whole world
or
b) Foreigners and Greeks are simply taught what is the existing state of the art of Historians on the subject.

So, there is no intentional "brainwashing" of Greeks in Greece, but just Greece follows what more developed countries say for the last 200 years.

If some funny brainwashing is taking place, it has to be searched for elsewhere.

Andreas have you ever heard of Appian?

"The Roman people and Senate, and Flamininus, their general, having vanquished the Macedonians and Philip, their king, order that Greece shall be free from foreign garrisons, not subject to tribute, and shall live under her own customs and laws."

I know you ve been all over that issue and but Andreas do you know of any other case that anybody should proove he is Hellene in order to participate in those games.Isnt that a precedent.

I get the feeling we have imposters here...and no im not talking about Alexander PHILHELLENE.

Macedonians had very few commercial or cultural relations with southern Greeks before 5th cent b.C. The same holds for Thessalians, although to a lesser degree.

So a Macedonian visiting the Olympics would seem to the southerners as a barbarian, and had to prove who he was.

It was an exceptional case, he was a King, and thus it passed in History.

As for other comments from ancient aurhors and other sources :

Please have a look at OXFORD. ALL these elements of evidence have been accounted for BEFORE these scholars finalized their views. Why you think they are less informed than you ?

Give it a rest, Andreas.

A Macedonian king being referred to as a 'philhellene' and being forced to 'prove' his 'Hellenic' bloodline. As if there were records in those days. He'd have one of his historians fabricate a lineage for him -- much like what your government does for people like you.

A Macedonian king being referred to as a barbarian.

Another Macedonian king asking one of his generals if he will speak in Greek or his own Macedonian tongue.

There may have been some cultural affinity for ancient Greek culture on part of the ancient Macedonian royal house but to claim the ancient Macedonians were 'Greek' as some scholars do is just plain stupid.

Could you expect better from the post-Victorian philhellenes at Oxford. They've carelessly attributed half the culture of the known universe to the ancient Greeks. Halfwit morons.

I wonder what they have to say about the relationship between today's Greek-speaking Arvanovlach and Alexander the Great. Have they put together a pedigree for that as well? I wouldn't doubt it.

People, wipe your ass with the Western history you've read about the Balkans.

LMAO! You're one funny little *bad word* Andreas.

Macedonians and Macedonian kings calling themselves Hellenes and Barbarians. You either a) realise how stupid that sounds but care not, b) firmly believe your own nonsense in which case you're a damn loser.

I still don't get what you mean by Greek though. So Greeks were people from outside the city states and Hellenes were from inside? Well that does not make Macedonians Hellenes now does it? That makes it sound like 'greek' means barbarian, or outsider.

Are you saying the people from Thessaly, Achaia, Aetolia, Arcadia, Peloponnes, Magnesia, Epirus etc etc etc all call themselves hellenes?

And are you saying that Macedonians called themselves Hellenes too? because you're sort of contradicting yourself by saying they were outsiders as established above.


AND!!!


Using some Portuguese bloke to say "see! that is what they learned!" as a means of defining who ancient Macedonians were is fucking pathetic. Even I give you more credit that that!

AND AND!!!

Are you saying that Aleksandar Makedonski was related to the:

a) Arvanites
b) Vlachs
c) Jews
d) Albanians
e) Pomaks
f) Prosfigy
g) Roma
h) Macedonians

That make up Greece's population today?

I'll lock in H thanks.

AND AND AND!!!

Mate they taught us at school that Aleksandar was Macedonian. Here in Australia. And my history teacher was GREEK. Yes sir, GREEK. I thought I'd add that just for the record.

You disappoint me little man.

Wrong, in American Schools it teaches that Alexander the Great was Macedonian and barbarian according to the Greeks, and that he wasn't a hellene or "Greek".

It's true Nikolce. We in our schools learn Alexander was Macedonian not Greek, that he was a barbarian to the Greeks, that he and his father conquered them and that the Macedonians were related to the Illyrians and Thracians not Greeks.
Only time I came across Alexander being treated as a Greek (or Hellene, whatever) is in encyclopedias translated from a western languages (English, German, French, etc.), but that too rarely.

It is Herodot who put this bed night Story in the world:

Herodot can not be taken serious, for example:

The well known "quote" of Alexander I the Phillhellene:



So Looking at this, one will conclude, hey he admitid him self what he is.

BUT

Are we to believe Herodot? Let us look closely to the whole situation.

1# Alexander I was in the Mardonius Camp, the Persians

2# Herodot would like us to believe that:


With other words, Everybody in the Perisan Camp were in deep Sleep, even the Guards, AND THEY ARE STANDING IN THE NIGHT BEFORE THE GREAT BATTLE

BUT THAN AGAIN, HE IS NOT PREVENTED WRITING:



3# But than again, Herodot would like us to believe that in the Athenian Camp the things were different:



Exactly, The Athenian Guards were awake and kept guarding.


So all in all, Herodot while bringing up the alleged saying of Alexander I wants us to believe that:

PERSIAN GUARDS WERE IN DEEP SLEEP, SO ALEXANDER COULD RIDE OUT TO THE ATHENIAN GUARDS, WARN THEM; AND THAN RETURN TO THE PERSIAN CAMP UNDETECTED; WHICH IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY;

Conclusion:

1# No King is going for him self as Messengare, and risk to get caught or killed. Instead he sends Messingare.

2# Before the Great Battle, no one will go in DEEP SLEEP, and UNLIKELY the GUARDS, as SHOWN IN THE ATHENIAN CAMP.


FACIT, HERODOT IS A LIAR AND STORY TELLER, HE IS HOLYWOOD OF THE ANCIENT TIME, AND SHOULD CAREFULLY BE READ AND INTERPRETED.

Where do I say that ? Do not distort my writings as you please !
As to how Macedonians are treated by historians of today, please see :
A HISTORY OF EUROPE;, J.M. Roberts, Allen Lane Penguin Press, 1996, σελ. 40 :
Towards the end of the Peloponnesian war a new force had been beginning to make itself felt on the northern edge of the Greek world, the kingdom of Macedon. Its inhab­itants spoke Greek and their representatives attended the pan-Hellenistic festivals. Macedon's kings said they were descended from Achilles, the great Achaean hero of the llliad and claimed, simply and explicitly, to govern a Greek state and be part of Hellas. But many Greeks disagreed, thinking the Macedonians a barbarous lot, barely civilized, and by no means on a par with the cultivated city-dwellers of the Aegean, Ionia and Magna Graecia. Undoubtedly Macedon was a rougher, tougher place than, say, Athens or Corinth; its kings had to manage an aristocracy of mountain chiefs who would prob­ably not have been much impressed by Athenian sophistication. Yet Macedon changed the course of history by giving Greek civilization a huge new extension.


Read some history book. It says exctly what I posted.

Of course ! EVERY BOOK ON ANCIENT GREECE SAYS THAT !!!

In the 1st century AD, yes. St, Paul found only Greeks in Thessaloniki. You can find it in the Bible. It has been posted long ago in this very Forum.

I say that ancient Macs are condidered FOR THE TIME BEING to be Greeks because this IS THE OPINION EXPRESSED IN OXFORD ANCIENT HISTORY.
So, I do not rely "on a Portuguese bloke", as you "politely" write !
Inca said what he learned in Peru. I know what they learn in Russia. As for the opposite narrations of some people here, these narrations are in par with their acute hatred against Greeks, hence untrustworthy.

Greece is inghabited by Greeks, you like it or not.
People with Arvanite or Vlach EXTRACTION are at most 500.000. But they are fully assimilated a long time ago.
Albanians are guestworkers.
Pomaks are included in the 150.000 strong Moslem minority.
Prosfiges (prosfigi is wrong) are Greeks. I am the offspring of them.
Roma are 300.000 roughly. They do not want minority status.
Jews were about 60.000 before WW_II. Today they are about 5.000-10.000.
You forgot the Armenians : 35.000.
Macedonians are between 30-50.000. Bacause I pity you being relentlesly beaten, I accept as a grace 50.000.
So we have at most 150+300+10+50+35 = 545.000 at most, non Greeks.
And we have 500.000 long ago assimilated.
We are 10.5 mil. Hence :
population 95% Greek if we do not subtract the assimilated
population 90% Greek if we SUBTRACT the assimilated.

What about Republica Makedonia ?

After all you said, do you expect me to believe you ?

MK, we have gone through all this many times. I explained it clearly in older posts that the sources give us conflicting evidence about ancient Macs. I said 100 times that hundreds of scholars have gone through all these sources.

AND I conluded that what I accept is what OXFORD says :

For the time being, ancient Macs are accepted as Greeks. But there is room for doubt, so research has to continue.
This concludes my discussion on the subject. I will not answer any other similar post.

So, I think the conversation has gone astray. INCA asked about the "killings of the beginnings of 20th century". If you have documents proving the alleged genocide of Macedonians by Greeks (and/or Bulgarians and Serbs), please present them. I mentioned the Carnegie Reports. So, please do something on the real matter.

I know your opinion, but OXFORD is not GOD, as I see it. So if OXFORD concludes something, that does not means that it is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

By the way you are right, that the thread got astray.

greetings

Um. Reading that logically that proves there was a big distinction between 'hellas' as you call it and Macedonia.

And you really have no right to talk about distorting words.



How about YOU read some history book other than those of Oxford or Wikipedia.



According to English 'scholars' that is. But that doesn't mean the Macedonians did too though, does it?



Well the Bible mentions Macedonia too. Never says anything about Macedonia being only Greek. And which translation of the Bible? I wouldn't know I've never read it fully.



You see the problem with that is I don't believe Oxford. So what are we to do now? Oxford is not the be-all-end-all of history books.



Yes indeed Greek is inhabited by Greeks. Of course it is. Your definition of Greeks and mine would differ somewhat though wouldn't it? Because I would suggest your figures aren't quite accurate seeing as they come from the Greek government themselves.



What about it? Check any website to get the stats we don't need to hide them.




Believe me or don't believe me. Ask someone else on this forum or check the above posts.

Yeah fine don't reply. What are you replies but hackneyed copy-and-paste jobs anyway where all the material is picked and chosen like ripe fruit.

Even you aggree there is room for disagreement but when it is a Macedonian, looking at LOGICAL information then that is absurd but if it is some four-eyes from Oxford then that is the only information applicable.

You're an idiot, nothing more, a lot less.