Exactly.

...???

It is quite a stretch to speak of any memory of 'our people' going back 1,000 years. Personally, I don't know anybody (including my grandparents, great grandparents and contemporaries of theirs that I've met) who claimed to have any memory of Samuil passed on to them by their predecessors, except for what they were taught by foreign (mostly Bulgarian and Serbian) or by YugoSLAV Macedonian 'educators' and opinion-builders. Yet all of them considered themselves Macedonian, without anybody having imposed that sense of identity upon them. If there are in fact some Macedonians who have a 'memory' of Samuil or of a Slav or Bulgarian identity, I respect their right to their own opinion and to self-identification, as I expect them to respect mine. The same goes for Vlach Macedonians, Albanian Macedonians, Greek Macedonians etc. If they can all maintain their 'sub-identites' (for want of a better descriptor) while joining together for the good of Macedonia and the human rights of all of its inhabitants, that would be great, but unity that is imposed on people by indoctrination or otherwise is not genuine unity.

Basil II is recorded in internationally acknowledged (among academic circlesl) historical sources as a Macedonian Emperor of Rome ('Byzantium') and as "Basil the Bulgaroslayer'. Samuil is acknowledge by the same sources as a Bulgarian King. Even 'Slav' Macedonian and other 'Slav' sources acknowledge this, but the 'Slav' Macedonian sources usually make some poor attempt to explain it away. Most of 'our' ancestors of the late 19th and 20th century, who glorified Samuil, were indoctrinated to think they were of Bulgarian origin or 'Macedonian Bulgarians'. Their acceptance of the cult of Samuil was part of the whole 'Macedonian Bulgarians' fable and then became part of the 'Macedonian Slavs' or 'Slav Macedonians' improvisation.

As far as accepting a version of history merely because some of our politically indoctrinated ancestors (who didn't have the opportunities that we do) did, it would be nice if people made more of an effort to study our most recent history and compare it to today. 15 years ago, speaking of Macedonians as descendants of the ancient Macedonians (not in a "pure blood" sense) was considered extreme by the 'Macedonian' mainstream (especially clergymen and historians who were obsessed with some vague 'Slav' identity), which generally accepted the Pan-Slavist theory (fed to us by Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, and their Western and Eastern patrons) that 'we' (i.e. Macedonian 'Slavs') ORIGINATE from 6th century 'Slav' settlers in Macedonia, who either wiped out or assimilated the indigenous Macedonian population. The independently minded Macedonian patriotic movement (led by veteran Macedonian patriots from the diaspora, like the late Krsto Enchev) that has emphasized the Macedonian character of the Macedonians of Byzantium and of Constantinople (during the 'Macedonian Epoch' of Byzantium), and has challenged the popular theory which evolves around Samuil as the first 'Macedonian' king, is the same movement that was accused of romanticism and even fascism 15 years ago because of its 'glorification' of the ancient Macedonians. And now have 'intellectuals' and historians in the Macedonian Republic who used to frown upon and ridicule any Macedonian who mentioned the ancient Macedonians as his ancestors all of a sudden revising their theories. We even have 'soldiers' of the Pan-Slavic theory promoting images and symbols of Philip, Alexander and the ancient Macedonians generally, while ignorantly ridiculing the work (sentiments?) of the very movement without which they would probably still be treating Philip and Alexander as Greeks or 'old Macedonians' who somehow became extinct.

Even Misirkov, who is considered to be a key ideologue of the "Macedonian Slavs" who glorify Samuil and treat Basil II as a Greek, didn't think much of accepting something as truth simply because his immediate ancestors did so. If he did, he would have insisted that the Macedonians should maintain a Bulgarian identity, as his immediate ancestors did (see the Misirkov citation above). Misirkov, with all the flaws that were a product of the times and circumstances in which he lived, was ahead of his time. Unfortunately, his current idolizers are mostly behind their own times.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Igor, nasite vo Makedonija uste poveketo mislat deka nie poteknuvame od slovenite. Koga ziveev vo Makedonja vo ucilistata toa go predavaja i majka mi kako ucitelka isto toa mu go predavase na decata. Taka bese sistemot. Makedoncite vo republikata nas vo diasporata cudno ne gledaat koga nie zboruvame deka poteknuvame od starite makedonci. Znaci samite Makedonci sme podeleni od kade poteknuvame. Ne znam kako e mislenjeto sega vo makedonija i sto vo ucilistata gi ucat decata.

Vo diasporata vo sabotnite ucilista se predava deka nie poteknuvama od starite makedonci. Ima golem kontrast so predavanjeto od makedonija. Nema konsensus. Jas mislam deka edna teorija za nasite koreni doaga od Jugoslavskoto vlijanie i druga strana e vlijanieto od diasporata, a vo ova vlijanie glavni igraci se egejcite. Eve ti ja podelbata vardarci i egejci.

Jas da ti kazam ne znam mnogu za ovaj Vasil, ama vo Makedonija Samoil e golema licnost i poveke znacajnost mu se dava nego.

No no, there has been several years that in the texbooks the children are thought that we decend from the anc Macedonians, and the slav episode is treated just like that - like a episode in the long Macedonian history.

The older ppl still have the 'slav' confusion in their heads - even my educated friend when asked me to tell him a Macedonian god - when i told him 'Perun' he said - no no thats a 'slavic' god while we have a whole mountin in Macedonia named by this god - PERUN/PIRIN (some old dedovci still call it Perun planina).

So when the new generations in the republic grow up and bcm the majority - i think this confusion in the minds of the ppl will end. They just cant equalize slavic with anc macedonian. The german and slav propaganda simply convinced the ppl about its 'rightness' and now they have a hard time understanding that anc macedonians and 'slavs' are one and the same.

And they had a good reason to make the Macedonians forget who they are and feed them an invented version of their descent.

Like Pasko Kuzman said - in Ukraina (thats behind the Karpite mountins) the archeological layers are deep only 60 centimeters - while in Macedonia are deep 8 meters. Till the neolit and more...

So its clear where was the center, and from where to where ppl migrated - from Macedonia to Ukraina and above after the Roman imprisonment - coz the Romans had the order to KILL everybody except peasents. The cavalry,the army,the aristocracy - everybody!!So they fled northwards and this is well documented in cont. sources. So there was a migration - but they inverted the truth and accomplished to convince Yu Macedonians of its "thruthfullness" - and to not even say a word about how any manifestation of Mk nationalism was brutally surpressed.

In short - they are scared of us, 5 million souls, bcs we had the first european/asian empire. Go to Rome - 70 percent of its treasure is stolen and brought from Macedonia.

Mladenovski,

Toa shto mi go kazhuvash za vo Republika Makedonija go uchev i jas dodeka zhiveev tamu, pa i otkako dojdov vo Avstralija, no vo 1991g imav prilika da se zapoznaam so makedonski patrioti, koi razmisluvaat nevoobichaeno slobodno i kritichno za minatoto i idninata na svojot narod. Takvite patrioti mi dadoa pottik i upatstvo za nezavisno i kritichno istrazhuvanje i razmisluvanje za nashata istorija, preku shto sfativ do koj stepen toa shto sum go uchel vo Makedonija bilo vo sluzhba na politichka indoktrinacija, koja vleche koreni od nemakedonski interesi. Povekjeto od niv ne se od egejskiot del na Makedonija. Nivniot glaven teoretichar, pokojniot Krsto Enchev (kogo imav chest lichno da go zapoznaam), bil profesor vo Bugarija, odnosno vo pirinska Makedonija (iako mislam deka ima nekoe poteklo od egejskiot del), no bil prinuden da prebega vo stranstvo zaradi negovoto intelektualno buntovnishtvo. Od ostanatite, povekjeto se od vardaskiot del. Povekjeto od niv nekogash ja delele panslavistichkata zabluda, no, blagodarenie na nivniot slobodarski duh i avstraliskite priliki, se oslobodile od taa indoktrinacija. Duri i Dragan Bogdanovski, legendata na DOOM, otprvin vo Makedonska Nacija gi ima kritikuvano kako romantichari i fashiziodni onie koi privlekuvale vnimanie kon nashite antichki koreni i ja kritikuvale panslavistichkata teza, za podocna da pochne i samiot da gi razviva i promovira nivnite gledishta.

Vo Republika Makedonija ima nekolku patriotski nauchnici koi razmisluvaat slobodno i zatoa pochnuvaat da ja preispituvaat tamoshnata dominantna teza za potekloto i istorijata na makedonskiot narod. No tamoshnite sistemski priliki se takvi shto e mnogu teshko takvite lugje da se istaknat ili da dobijat shiroka institucionalna poddrshka za nivnite nauchni napori. Mnogu polesno se probivaat konformistite koi se dodvoruvaat na Bugarija, na Grcija, na Srbija (sega ne tolku kolku porano), na Albanskite separatisti i na pogolemi stranski drzhavi koi stojat zad tie nashi sosedni nacii. Na site tie antimakedonski politichki sili im odgovara da gi prikazhat Makedoncite kako novosozdadena narodnost, koja poteknuva od "slovenski" doselenici koi ne steknale poseben Makedonski identitet se do sozdavanjeto na Socijalistichka Republika Makedonija, vo ramkite na Jugoslavija, vo koja za prv pat prikaznata za "Makedonskite Sloveni" stana opshtoprifatena (tezata na Misirkov za sozdavanje na posebna makedonska nacija ne bila opshtoprifatena megju Makedoncite vo negovoto vreme). Na site tie antimakedonski sili im odgovara “slovenskoto naselenie vo Makedonija” da prifati deka negovite najznachajni predci se lugje za koi svetot znae deka ne nosele makedonski, tuku samo 'slovenski', bugarski ili srpski identitet, a pak za onie koi sigurno nosele kakov takov makedonski identitet (kako antichkite makedonci, pa i vizantiskite makedonci) da prifati deka bile grci. So popularnoto prifakjanje na edna takva teza, teshko e da se kazhe deka vo Republika Makedonija i vo egejskiot, pirinskiot, maloprespanskiot i goranskiot (podelen megju Albanija i Kosovo) del na Makedonija zhiveat pripadnici na eden ist Makedonski narod, bidejki ovie drugi delovi nikogash ne bile del od Republika Makedonija. Mozhe da se kaze deka vo site tie delovi ima 'slovensko' naselenie, no toa ne znachi mnogu, bidejki 'slovenite' mozhat da bidat i bugari i srbi, pa duri i 'slovenski' grci, odnosno grci koi govorat ‘slovenski’.

Ne treba da se lazheme deka Republika Makedonija e navistina suverena i slobodna drzhava. Nejziniot suverenitet i nejzinata sloboda se samo zakonska formalnost. Sushtinskiot suverenitet i sloboda na eden narod pretpostavuvaat deka toj narod generalno si ja kroi sopstvenata sudbina, a sudbinata na nasiot narod vo Makedonija seushte najmnogu mu ja krojat drugi. Toa vazhi duri i za ustavniot poredok, istorijata, pa i imeto na drzhavata. Shto e najtragichno, pogolemiot del od nashiot narod si ja prifakja takvata novoropska potchinetost kako neminovna. Zatoa velam deka slednite zborovi na Goce Delchev se vazhechki denes kolku shto bile i vo negovoto vreme (se razbira, ne treba da se sfatat premnogu bukvalno):

"Ropstvoto se dolzhi, pred se, na samiot rob."

"Moralnata revolucija – revolucijata vo umot, srceto i dushata na eden ropski narod, e najgolemata zadacha.” – Goce Delchev, Mart 1901

“Ne mozhe da se nadevame na tugja pomosh, … tuku treba da se podgotvime odnatre – vo dushata sekoj selanec da se pronikne pod taa ideja …” – Goce Delchev, autumn 1900

“Ovchka glavo, zapomni deka pred onie, na koi ja dolzhish mozhnosta da go napishesh svoeto ime chovek, treba da stoish bez kapa i koga gi pcuesh.” – Goce Delchev, 1890

“Goni gi upravnicite, mrazi gi i vostanuvaj protiv sekoj vlastelin.” – Goce Delchev, 1897

“Grizhete se da ja iskorenite taa slabost (chekanata pomosh od ruskiot tiranin) i od najzabludeniot strashlivec, pa namesto toa, neka se rodi nepobedlivata sila na samodejnosta i reshitelnosta i togash veruvajte, sekoj eden kje se bori dokraj so najgolema zhestokost.” – Goce Delchev, 1895

“Kurazh i silna vera vo sebesi – toa e silata shto gi dava site uspesi.” – Goce Delchev, 1899

“Koj znae, dali ima narod, koj tolku mnogu da trpel od svoite sinovi izrodi, kako makedonskiot…” – Goce Delchev, 1897

“Praviot chovek od nishto ne treba da se plashi.” – Goce Delchev, 1895

Kolkumina od onie konformisti koi denes go velichat Delchev kako nash najgolem velikan pokazhale deka se svesni za negovite najosnovni ideoloshki, filozovski i etichki opredelbi, koi mnogu jasno se odrazeni preku gornite citati? Zarem ne e preterano samozabluduvanje da zboruvame za nekakvo “narodno” (t.e. popularno) pamtenje okolu toa koi i kakvi bile Samuil, Vasil II i Ohridskata Patrijarshija/Arhiepiskopija pred 1,000 godini, koga e tolku ochigledno deka nashiot “narod” ne gi pamti ni najosnovnite osobini na svojot najgolem velikan, od pred malku povekje od sto godini?

You mean there was a Macedonian 'crown' in his day? What is the source of this information? As far as I know, Vasil only had one crown and it was Roman (the Roman empire at the time was a multiethnic one), yet he still maintained a Macedonian identity.



Is there any evidence that Samuil ever identified as a Macedonian, like Vasil did?

We could say that a large part, or even the majority of people who make up the Bulgarian state today, including many of those who led its creation, are also of Macedonian or similar (Thracian) origin, but does that mean that we should treat the Bulgarian state as being reflective of the Macedonian identity?

If they were both Macedonian (there are sources from their era which say that neither of them was personally of Macedonian origin, but I can agree that both of them probably had soldiers, administrators and other 'subjects' who were of Macedonian origin), what exactly is the good reason for us putting Samuil above Vasil in our Macedonian national history, especially if Vasil was the only one to actually identify and be identified as Macedonian?

I totally agree with u on this - Vasil and the byzantine Macedonian dynasty should take the righfull place in the history of our ppl. Coz the neo-hellenes think they can claim all the lands and history based solely on Alex's conquest, wich was not even a Greek. Its like the Italians today claim half of the world based on facts from bfr 2000 years.

Translation of the Imperial Crown seen by the the Medeivial people.



Translatio Imperii

Igor, ke bidi tesko za Mekdonskiot narod vo Makedonija da go prifati covekot (Vasil) koj naredil na sekoj eden od sto vojnici samo edno oko da mu se ostavi za da mozat da se vratat nazad. Toa e legenda.

Vizantite, kako sto jas bev ucen bea protivnik na samoil i nasi neprijateli. Toa mislenje ke bidi tesko da se smeni.

Ova drzi voda, se soglasuvam. Narodot samiot neznae koj e i sto e ama barame site drugi da ne znaat. Zal ama vistina.

You just can't help yourself can you, kako bebeto malo shto treba da go kazhi posledniot zbor, what a great leader for our people you are

It seems you can't help yourself either.

As far as I was concerned this was all pretty much over, yet he once again makes reference to me in a smug way, would you rather have me say nothing? It would seem that way, I am a mere "internet warrior" as Aleksandrov the "chairperson" likes to claim, yet he is the one behaving like a child and avoiding questions, some example he has set.

Thank you for your "objective" intervention like usual, one wonders why you didn't address your comments to both of us? Don't worry, I am not relying on a response from you, just like when I replied to your previous suggestion.

PS: Pazi da ne go nalutite igorche, site mu kjutite kako da vi e strav od neshto, gomiti ona shto go kazhvam jas bilo neshto novo i ne go imate kazhano i vie, a sega, molchite.

Abre kako gupcite na bajro se karate.

Abe zasho trebashe da ima nekoj Grk kako Andeas!!!

Za da mozhime so nego da se karame, a ne eden so drug

Interesting point mk. Maybe we need to look into that.

believe me it is true and worth of looking into

pozdrav

My 'reference' was a response to your assinine and extremely disrespectful reference to the Macedonian community centre Basil II in Sydney (which I did not establish or name) as a ' basement headquarters of Vasil Vtori', in which 'outrageous claims' are being "conjured up'. I think my comment was extremely mild compared to what you would get if you had the courage to come to Sydney and say that to the members and supporters of the centre in their face. You should consider yourself quite fortunate that you have the luxury of hiding the insolent nonsense posted in this thread behind your computer and the highly undeserved 'Soldier of Macedon' user ID.

Given your behaviour on this thread, I think I have been much more tolerant and respectful towards you than most people I know would be if they were in my position. I don't really care what you think about me, since you are little more than fake internet identity to me (yes, other members here don't use their real names, but they earn respect with the substance of their posts), but when you publicly offend and disrespect other Macedonians who I know have devoted much of their lives to the Macedonian cause, don't expect me to respond with respect that you clearly don't deserve, given the blatant disrespect you show towards a plethora of activists of whom you know nothing and who I am quite certain have sacrificed much more for the Macedonian cause than you have.

And on that pleasant note, I'm locking this baby up.