Michael Attaliates: Albanians arrived in 1043 AD

The Anomaly · **Posted:** 24 Nov 2007 15:45

Quote:

In 'Historia, Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae' written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the "Albanoi" as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.

Quote:

In the eighth century, Arabs invaded Caucasian Albania and Islamized the population. The Arabs later invaded Sicily and brought a significant number of people from the Caucasus to settle there in order to strengthen the Islamic influence in that area. Later, Byzantium recaptured a portion of the island and Christianized the Albanian population. In 1042 AD, a rebel Byzantine military commander by the name of George Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to present-day Albania to fight against the Byzantines, and the mercenaries brought their families with them. After the battle was over, the mercenaries were unable to return to Sicily and stayed in Albania. Proponents of the theory of Caucasian origin of Albanians assert that these mercenaries formed the modern Albanian people.

Quote:

Arguments for:

* It is known that Maniakos used mercenaries from Sicily to fight against the Byzantines in 1042 AD. It is also known that Arabs settled people from the Caucasus in Sicily.
* The first time modern Albanians were mentioned was in 1042 AD which coincides with the theory that they arrived in the Balkans at that time.

Quote:

Arguments against:

* Modern Albanian is an Indo-European language. The Udi language, which is believed to be the modern descendant of the language of the ancient Caucasian Albanians, is a Caucasian language.
* The name of the region, Albania, was a Latin term, which was given due to the regions mountainous landscape. The actual name used has always been Aghbania. In the early 11th century Albanians called themselves Arberor and the lands they inhabited were called Arberia or Arbenon.
* The Albanian language's close ties with Romanian's substratum makes the theory of Caucas origin unlikely, pointing rather to indigenous Balkan origin for Albanians.

Your thoughts?

In my opinion, the arguments against are flawed, except probably No#2, but it too is weak.

Andreas Syggros · **Posted:** 24 Nov 2007 16:10

Slovák wrote:

Quote:

In the eighth century, Arabs invaded Caucasian Albania and Islamized the population. The Arabs later invaded Sicily and brought a significant number of people from the Caucasus to settle there in order to strengthen the Islamic influence in that area. Later, Byzantium recaptured a portion of the island and Christianized the Albanian population. In 1042 AD, a rebel Byzantine military commander by the name of George Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to present-day Albania to fight against the Byzantines, and the mercenaries brought their families with them. After the battle was over, the mercenaries were unable to return to Sicily and stayed in Albania. Proponents of the theory of Caucasian origin of Albanians assert that these mercenaries formed the modern Albanian people.

This quote cannot be from Ataleiates. I mean the red part of it !

Slovák wrote:

Quote:

Arguments against:
* Modern Albanian is an Indo-European language. The Udi language, which is believed to be the modern descendant of the language of the ancient Caucasian Albanians, is a Caucasian language.
* The name of the region, Albania, was a Latin term, which was given due to the regions mountainous landscape. The actual name used has always been Aghbania. In the early 11th century Albanians called themselves Arberor and the lands they inhabited were called Arberia or Arbenon.
* The Albanian language's close ties with Romanian's substratum makes the theory of Caucas origin unlikely, pointing rather to indigenous Balkan origin for Albanians. \

All arguments are very strong. Soem more you missed :
* Modern Albaninas have a lot of blond people with blue eyes. Not a Caucasian characteristic.
* Modern Albanian, Macedonian, Bulgarian and Romanian share the characteristic definite article placed as a suffix AFTER the noun.
Examples :
LACUL = Le Lac = the lake ( LAC _ UL )
CHALITE = the strore CHALI for cheese in Sofia = (CHALI _ TE)
Since NO other slavic language has definite article except Macedonian and Bulgarian, one is tempted to think that there is an ancient substratum common in Romanian, Macedonian, Bulgarian and Albanian : The Illyro-Thracian one.
* The problem of numbers : You challenge the Slavic Migrations as being impossible due to logistics. How can you accept that Albanians were transported by ship of THAT PERIOD in such great numbers as to become today almost equal with Bulgarians and outnumbering Macedonians -4- times ? ( Whole of Albanians = 6.2 mil ).

The Anomaly · **Posted:** 24 Nov 2007 16:24

Definite article appeared in Macedonian and Bulgarian only since the Ottoman times.

Caucasian characteristic is precisely blond hair and blue eyes.

The Romanians are descendants of Roman colonists, but more of Vlach shepherds who migrated there later. Albanians settled in a territory predominantly populated by Vlachs. Both Romanian and Albanian have in fact a Slavic substratum.

Hungarians settled in Panonia in very few numbers as well. They were shepherds. Vlachs migrate through the entire Balkans. They too are shepherds. Albanians were shepherds and settled in predominantly in mountain areas away from lowland agricultural Slavic population.
Both Hungarians, Vlachs and Albanians later expand to form nations.
The same rules of expansion do not apply for nomadic nations as for agricultural nations.

Any more dumb theories?

The Anomaly · **Posted:** 25 Nov 2007 18:18

I can't find those maps in Russian which show all the Slavic toponyms in Albania. I mean they are evidence for a lot of things.

Another thing is the Albanian language, which according to the linguists at the University of Texas at Austin claimed was uncategorizable because it was too much influenced by neighboring language particularly Romance languages. I remember that in school we were taught that Albanian was once believed to be a Romance language, before modern linguistics developed, because of the high Romance vocabulary.

Voya · **Posted:** 25 Nov 2007 18:51

Andreas Syggros wrote:

* The problem of numbers : You challenge the Slavic Migrations as being impossible due to logistics. How can you accept that Albanians were transported by ship of THAT PERIOD in such great numbers as to become today almost equal with Bulgarians and outnumbering Macedonians -4- times ? ( Whole of Albanians = 6.2 mil ).

The number of children in albanian family it can be extremly large like 5-12 children.

Macedonian number is much less.

Many Macedonians are now peacefully asimilated trough our neighbooring countries, even further, in Hungary, Austria, Russia, Ukraine, yet they have lost their identity centuries earlier.

Anyway, i somehow believe in this theory or whatever you call it. Albania, in ancient and early medieval times was @ Caucassus. Roman maps show that. How come the Illirians to be called Albanians, when @ that time Albanians were living in Caucassus. IMO, Illirians are most likely the Croats.

Risto the Great · **Joined:** 04 Oct 2005 13:28 **Posts:** 896

I always wondered if the region called "Transalvania" in Romania represents a migratorial path the albanians undertook. Might be way off but nevertheless, the wording is interesting.

Voya · **Posted:** 28 Nov 2007 19:07

Risto the Great wrote:

I always wondered if the region called "Transalvania" in Romania represents a migratorial path the albanians undertook. Might be way off but nevertheless, the wording is interesting.

What does Trans mean in koini language? Alvania=Albania.

Risto the Great · **Joined:** 04 Oct 2005 13:28 **Posts:** 896

Voya wrote:

Risto the Great wrote:

I always wondered if the region called "Transalvania" in Romania represents a migratorial path the albanians undertook. Might be way off but nevertheless, the wording is interesting.

What does Trans mean in koini language? Alvania=Albania.

Don't know in koini ... but ... "Trans" is a Latin noun or prefix, meaning "across", "beyond" or "on the opposite side [of]"

Voya · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2007 21:37

Yeah, something like Transformation.

A Great find indeed.
TransAlbania, if it's possible. I'm not up much into their Great Illirian history.

Paul · **Posted:** 03 Dec 2007 03:32

Voya wrote:

Risto the Great wrote:

I always wondered if the region called "Transalvania" in Romania represents a migratorial path the albanians undertook. Might be way off but nevertheless, the wording is interesting.

What does Trans mean in koini language? Alvania=Albania.

Actually, there are cases where Albanians and Vlachs are confused as similar or the same.

For example, the three tribes modern Albanian nationalists claim are the progenitors of the ancient Illyrians and which they claim they are descended from 1. Albanoi 2. Mesaratai and 3. *rude word*, have been described by Byzantine Chroniclers as Vlach speaking. Curious ??

It would be interesting to track the migratory patterns of the Romanians/Vlachs ! That may explain the strong Latin and Slavic in Albanian, very present in Romanian.

ps: this 'rude word' thing just popped up for the name of a 11 century tribe in the Balkans - strange!!

maknews · **Posted:** 03 Dec 2007 03:37

Was this tribe called the 'fuckwits' or something? :shock:

Risto the Great · **Joined:** 04 Oct 2005 13:28 **Posts:** 896

maknews wrote:

Was this tribe called the 'fuckwits' or something? :shock:

Paul · **Posted:** 03 Dec 2007 03:47

maknews wrote:

Was this tribe called the 'fuckwits' or something? :shock:

I'll type the word again and see what happens.

*rude word*

It did it again. Strange.
Type in this word Maknews M - a -l -a -k -a -s -i
Oh, I see why ?!!!

maknews · **Posted:** 03 Dec 2007 03:52

There are a lot of people from the *rude word* tribe that visit this site.

Michael Attaliates: Albanians arrived in 1043 AD

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