Anybody know where we can get their memoirs?

An excerpt from Dame Gruev:

It was after the assassination of Minister Belchev in Sofia that, for the first time, I became aware of my desire to work for the Macedonian cause. Three or four months before that, we, the Macedonian students at the University, had decided to organize ourselves for self-education and mutual influence. Our aim was that, after completing our education, we should all return to Macedonia, which stood in great need of intellectual forces. In this narrow, intimate circle of ours, the idea of creating a revolutionary organization in Macedonia was born. Serbian propaganda had already begun its activity and we were shocked by this and considered that we had to hasten and put the idea of the liberation of Macedonia on the agenda before Serbian propaganda gained momentum and managed to split the people. We had experienced the activities of this propaganda. It had agitators both in Soloun and Skopje. They promised us' scholarships and gave them to us. It was then that I and several other Macedonians went to Belgrade. There, we were able to perceive the intentions of the Serbs because of their great efforts to impress us with the Serbian idea and to impose the Serbian language upon us, which irritated us even more.

Nevermind, I have found them on-line.

Interesting reading, what a shame our leaders from the past often remained indifferent to Bulgarian propaganda, or, allowed themselves to become itnertwined in it. Most of the VMRO memoirs can be found on Macedonian or bulgarian websites, and many stories of suffering are told.

Boris Sarafov is a traitor, he helped the serbian cetnik detachments come in to Macedonia.
Thats why he got executed.


PS. You got a link for the memoirs?

Some of these guys from our revolutionary past really irritate me, when they talk about a free independent Macedonia, yet at the same time work for the interests of our then enemies, ie Serbia and Bulgaria.

Like Boris Sarafov, he was the guy who said that known quote that was put on the front cover of the Makedonski Glas magazine in Russia 'We Macedonians are not Serbs nor Bulgars, but simply Macedonians...'

most of them were faced with the fact that Macedonians cant free Macedonia on their own, with out help, thus, they were trying to find the help from others.


But hey, no Balkan State achieved their freedom with out others help too, thus that was normal at those days........ we cant blame them for what they were doing at the moment. They took the necessery steps........

Look at Sandanski, he was counting on the Young Turks help, what was inposible to do some decades ago......

It is more like they were obused by the "friendly neighbors" ... by "broderly people", "the Christians" who were doing everything to keep Macedonia as Status Quo, waiting for the right moment to grab what they can.......

I cant blame them for doing what was logical in the moment...they could not know the outcome of their action at the moment of doing it.....

for us it is easy to judge upon them now.........

I've changed the thread heading because the topic is broader than just two voivodi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_M ... ganization
It will give links to memoirs at the bottom of the page, some are in Macedonian, others are in Tatarized Macedonian(bulgarian).


Here is something from Ivan Grcheto;

Delchev explained: we cannot rest our hopes on foreign help, we shouldn't wait for help from Bulgaria nor from any other power, instead we need to prepare from within

Grigor Ivanov was telling them, to not rely on one Doncho, a hajduk, because he had other plans, because Bulgaria wants to absorb Macedonia, because that is the politics of the prince* (my note: *of bulgaria)


From Hristo Chernopeev;

I departed for Djumajsko with 8 people: Nikola Dechev from Stara Zagora and a youth, Alexander Drvodelov from Vraca; the other six were Macedonians.

There was strong opposition from Bulgaria against me and the others

Suddenly came Turks........we noticed them from a distance......they entered, 6 Turks and 2 (заптии) Bulgarians. The Turks ordered us to surrender so we fought them; one of the Bulgarians was wounded, and the other one surrended.

Boris Sarafov was an agent for Vrhovniot Makedonski Komitet in Sofia, he was a Vrhovist.

Petre ligusev was under the orders of Boris Sarafov to send Sugarev to the area where he would have the highest chance of not making it back alive.

they fought against their own people for money, they were paid to do it, the Vrhovisti were paid by the Bulgarian government to spread propaganda in Macedonia.

the serbs and greeks did the same, they used the Macedonians to do their dirty work which in the end the Macedonians were their own worst enemies. The president of the "Vrhovniot Makedonski Komitet" was a Macedonian, Trajko Kitancev

example of the serbs...

These people are Macedonians who for money let themselves be used for the greater advantage of Serbia's propaganda in Macedonia, they were all born in Macedonia. The whole reason Serbia formed these cheti in Macedonia was to combat VMRO, the same thing was done by Bulgaria and Greece, the Bulgarians set up the Vrhovsti through the Vrhovniot Makedonski Komitet.


Vojvoda Babunski who fought against VMRO, was from a poor family, the Serbian propaganda used Macedonians from economical challeneged backrounds to fight against VMRO.



a cheta from Macedonians who fought against VMRO on Serbia's side.





vojvoda Dovezenski


Vojvoda Micko Krstic with his komiti (real name Micko Pavleski od Selo Latovo) they all had Macedonian surnames but changed them when they crossed over to fight for Serbia's intrests in Macedonia, like i said before, Serbia targeted poor villagers and paid them for including themselves in the cheti to fight VMRO.



Vojvoda Gligor Sokolović (Real name Gligor Ljamev od selo Nebregovo - Prilepsko)



Vojvoda Trbic


Vojvoda Doksim Mihailović

The great Vojvoda Gjorgji Sugarev fought against Gligor Ljamev and Micko Pavleski as these Paid mercenaries were operating in Gjorgji Sugarev's region of operations.

Both of my great-grandfathers died in that battle along with the great Sugarev, I wasn't aware that Ligushev was working for Sarafov much less that Sarafov planned Sugarev's assasination, all of a sudden I feel a little hatred for Sarafov now.

Could you show me where you have read about Sarafov's involvement, is it in one of the VMRO memoirs?

Some excerpts from the memoirs of Nikola Pushkarov:


I am born in Bulgaria, in the city of Pirdop, now I am 29 years old.

When I finished school in 1895 I wanted to go with a 'cheta' into Macedonia.

The internal organisation members thought that the supremists were agents of the Bulgarian leadership

The 'cheta' in Skopje, without waiting for me, following the orders(?) of the Central Committee, came out headed by Andrei Kozhuharov, born a Macedonian, a teacher somewhere in Macedonia and returned to Skopje for Veligden

Todor Mirazchiev from Shtip fell to his death while three others were wounded. After this came 7 people from Serbia, chetniks - three Serbs and four Macedonians.

once i find the information as it was in a book somewhere in my house ill definatley post it up.

SoM, there's a book I want to send to you...

Known as (zlatnata kniga) 100 Godini VMRO - it was written by Macedonian professors / historians, organised by the VMRO-DPMNE committee in Melbourne (back in '93), when my father was President.

I have a few copies, there's a lot of stuff in there that you'd find interesting.

Rogi PM me i ke zborame poike.

VMRO, i'd appreciate that thanks.

Something more on Nikola Pushkarov, a Bulgarian-born who fought for the freedom of Macedonia and supported the Macedonians in their objectives. Apart from the already cited below:

There is also the following, which is an honest statement made from a foreigner who fought the Macedonian cause and saw something that many of our other neighbours didn't:
It is the wealth of Macedonia which makes the false patriots of her neighbors mad with "patriotism". Makes them burn with desire to cut off as large as possible a portion of Macedonia for themselves to "liberate" it, i.e. to deprive the Macedonians of the chance of governing themselves. But you must keep your land, Macedonians, from the false good wishes of those individuals. They will bring you a new slavery, harsher then the former. Your land is entirely capable of an independent existence ...Unite around the banner of the autonomy of your homeland, because it is the only banner which you will not be persecuted for not being a Greek, Serb or Bulgarian, but simply Macedonian.
Nikola Pushkarov, The Economic Wealth of Macedonia and its Neighbors, Bjoletin 8, July 19, 1919.

Ligusev never was under command of Sarafov..Sarafov became a leader of MRO because he wanter to revenge his father and grandfathers death..
He was included in Melnicko Vostanie in 1895..
If u want I can write some thing about Jovan Babunski but who needs things about Serbian *bad word*..I have some documents from his wife explanations and statements how she was treated during that period..
P.s: Gruevs excerpt where he says the name of Hristo Belcev..well he was assasinated by Dimitar Tufkeciev..He was opposite of Stambolov..
His brother Naum was one of the biggest vojvodi but the communists hid all the documents about him, also the Bulgarians don't talk much about him becase he is one of those who never declared as a Bulgarian and fought Bulgars a lot(he killed Stambolov by stabbing him 47times )

If u want more about spy and threasons watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IRFCvLtDOc
Pozdrav

Yes Ligushev was under the command of Sarafov after they had a secret meeting in Bulgaria where Sarafov paid Ligushev to be a puppet.
Sarafov might have been for Macedonia in 1895 but this is from 1905 when he became a servant of Vrhovizam.

Sugarev has been documentated to have been a strong opposer to Sarafov and his Vrhovizam.

"Takvite orudija najmnogu se sozdadoa od koga se beshe vratil P. Ligushev od Sofija... i beshe se stretnal so B. Sarafov" - G.P. Hristov (talking about the secret emeting) cit. Spomeni, Str 113

Sarafov was elected the delegate for VMRO for Bitola instead of Sugarev and Ligushev was secretary for VMRO, instead of electing Sugarev, Sugarev was sent to the hardest locations and where he can easily be killed.


i have more on Sarafov, if i post this information up all of you guys will hate him, its from old spomeni.

i also have more on Gjorgi Sugarev, a list of his cheta that was betrayed and killed, full names and where they were from.

if you want me to post up more info and the list just give me the word.

VMRO, I have an old book at home which I took from my father which lists all the Komiti who died with Sugarev, it may be the same as the one you have, my scanner is out of order at the moment so I can't put it up here yet, but it is an excellent book with some of the history of my family and their villages recorded in it.

Was this guy's name really LIGUSHEV??


So funnny

ps

i just found one photo of my grangrandad golem Stipski Vojvoda od Ilinden period i prethodno - Efrem Chuchkov, so i had to share it with you, this is a second photo of him that i ever saw - and it shocked me how much i look like him !!!



http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/al ... re=1953112

Quite fitting for a predavnik.

Welcome back Magedon.

Thanx Som!Good to b back!!!

Look, falsifying history at its best!!!This article actually implies that all of them were "Bulgarians" fighting for "Bulgarian Macedonia"!!!

Am so insulted, i cant tell u!

http://kroraina.com/www.todoralexandrov ... ka_en.html

The part in question

TODOR ALEXANDROV (1881-1924)

Todor Alexandrov was born on 4 March 1881 in the town of Shtip (Novo Selo quarter). He spent his childhood in Radovish where his father Alexander Poporushev was a teacher. After 1893 he studied at the Skopje four-class school which later became a pedagogical school. After his third year he and his classmated were sworn in the IMRO by Hristo Matov.

In te first half of 1903 he taught at Kochani and was the organizational leader in the region. After the death of Mishe Razvigorov he joined the Kochani cheta under Simeon Klincharski. After Razvigorov and together with Efrem Chuchkov he was the district voivoda of the Skopje Revolutionary District.

For the first time he revived the Organization in 1910. Two years before many IMRO activists, deceived by the promises of the Young Turks, became legal and surrendered their arms.

In the beginning of 1911 by a written agreement between the leaders and according to the rules of the IMRO was elected a new Central Committee consisting of Todor Alexandrov, Hristo Chernopeev and Petar Chaulev. Alexander Protogerov was chosen to be an auxiliary member and this way an attempt was made at a formal reconciliation with the former Supremacists (Protogerov was an ex-supremacist).

During the Balkan Wars Todor Alexandrov was a voivoda in the Salonica and Kukush regions. He was largely responsible for the victories of the Allies in the area. The town of Kukush was taken by the chetas and IMRO militia before the Bulgarian army entered. After 1913 Alexandrov organized the resistance against the new - Serbian and Greek - oppression.

One of the most shameful pages in Bulgarian history was the arrest by Alexander Stamboliyski's agrarian government of Todor Alexandrov. It was done to appease Serbia on 4 November 1919. Only ten days later he escaped and in the spring of 1920 left for Macedonia where he rebuilt the Organization again.


And pls. look at THIS page!!They actuallly claim ALL our history!!!I even heard some Bulgars talking that they were infact descendats of ancient Macedonians!!Even Pitu Guli was a Bulgarian!!!

http://goce.atspace.name/english/gallerysuperbig.htm

look at this



Efrem Chuchkov, Kliment Shapkarev, Goce Delchev, sitting in a Paris cafee!!