Ok guys, since we now have some new members that are ethnic Macedonians who are currently living in Greece i have realised that Macedonian is perhaps in greater use than i originally thought. However as i previously thought, the use of the Macedonian language is on the decline.

We have seen that while vinozhito as a political entity is fighting for the rights of Macedonians in the political arena, we are perhaps seeing a lack of effort on the linguistic front.

I thought that this would be a good place for us to brainstorm some ideas so that we can boost the linguistic skills of the ethnic Macedonians who want to learn.

I would think that we need to divide into different demographics so that we can most effectively offer solutions.

А. the most important demographic are the under 25s who's parents may still speak a little Makedonski but mostly it's all in Greek.
Educationally speaking, i would think that we would have to start from the basics. That is: learn the alphabet, learn basic lessons and have material in standard macedonian.


Б. The other demographic is the older generations, who's skills are only in the spoken language. the danger here is that the spoken languages will not be preserved, and it is difficult for them to learn new things/words when they can't read in the language and there is no material for them to read anyway.


I have some suggestions of my own, but i thought i should open the thread up to everyone's opinions on how we can best boost literacy of ethnic maks in northern greece.

(by the way since the name issue is just a technicality, the name under which the language is taught may be dopya or something... anything just to get the ball rolling)

maknews, i did contact vinožito a couple of years back on this matter and they simply did not reply to me. I assumed they were too busy to hear me out. Yes they may have worked on increasing the use of the language, but surely you recognise that it is first and foremost a political organisation with political goals?? They are working hard to get the minority recognised and the language taught in the offical schooling system. You know that this is a longer process and that time is running out.

What I would like to talk about right here is a grass-roots style of action that can be taken now. Things such as CDs, DVDs, websites etc.

i also don't appreciate being called a liar maknews, nor one who 'spreads lies' as if i'm some sort of gossip with evil intent to defame vinožito. i'm actually very offended by this!! i think that vinožito is doing a great job in their fight for the political rights of Macedonians in Greece. Nowhere have i stated otherwise, so get a grip!

if you haven't noticed by now i usually overlook things that would normally piss other people off. i mean here and there if there are niggling hints that could set people off into arguments, I usually look past those points to get to the end point, but THIS... coming from YOU is ridiculous. look just forget it, i'm gonna go out and suck back some tequilas..

All the Macedonians I know would like to learn some Macedonian, but it is not easy to convince them to study the official Macedonian language of the Republic. It would have been a good thing if a book was published, may be with the greek and the Cyrilic (so people can get to learn it)alphabets, with some easy text in a dialect spoken in the region and some grammar. This would help people to start to want to study the language and in a second time introduce the official macedonian language in the school system. We cannot start this thing from the top. There are many Macedonian that do not want to loose their dialect and want to preserve it, but if they do not have a written form, it is very difficult to pass it to the younger generations.

MKD is absolutely right. We need to help as much as we can.

And I know that Vinozito are doing their part. They already published a Bukvar i both Greek and Macedonian. They are working on a dictionary. But more ideas and more efforts can bring MORE results.

Vodenka,

How about printing a pesnarka (song book) with the lirics of the most famous macedonian folk songs. Both in Greek letters and in Macedonian letters. MKD and myself (and few others including Stefanos) were working on this a while ago, but it died down. I think if we prepare a pesnarka where on the left side we have the text with Greek alfavit, and on the right side we have it with macedonian cyrilics, people will find it useful, and it may help them learn the azbuka.

Folk songs are always in the dialect, so we can make a collection of the Aegean Folk songs, to keep it as close as possible to the spoken language.

Pesnarka can be prepared as a word document, and sent over the internet, and you can print it locally, as needed. Thats how we can avoid the customs, and all the hassle.

Another idea: we can prepare small portions of the Bible in Macedonian for print. Here we have the whole text:

http://www.mkbible.net/biblija/index.php

We can do one gospel at a time, or Psalms only, or the Wisdom of Solomon only?

Vodenka and Suhin, what do you thik?

What else might be interesting?

I have a proposal if I may. Now there have been proposals to create a Macedonian forum, right? So why not create just a Subforum for Aegean Macedonian? Anywhere I guess, but there the members could discuss and learn this dialect. It can only be an experimental Subforum. What do you think?

Pesnarka (song book) sounds great. I do not know about the Bible as I am not a religious person myself and I cannot immagine who would be interested. But old songs and local fairy tails would be very good! The people here would love it!

A song book is a fantastic idea!

Another suggestion would be something for the very young children (~ 5 year olds), like a colouring book, with say 10-15 A4-sized pages with images that need to be coloured in - images from different parts of Macedonian history or locations and other general images (which everyone will relate to, immediately) and with a 1-2 sentence explanation of the image (in both Greek and Macedonian with Aegean dialect).

Yes, i remember talking about this. The aim was to use my transliterator tool to convert all of the Macedonian songs into Alfavita.

Or, did you want to have Macedonian and a full on greek translation on the other side (or perhaps the bottom of the book?). Obviously a greek translation bit would take quite a while...

however, now that we have Vodenka and Suhin maybe it will be much easier

You need to change the culture in Greece and vinozhito has been trying to to that.

If you want to help try working with Vinozhito now instead of reinventing the wheel. I feel that Vinozhito deserves more respect.

I know I can be critical - you'll have to forgive me for that but I can smell the scent of ego coming from a mile away. I hope I'm wrong.

MKD is right, from a strategic (and philosophical) perspective.

Vinozito needs 100% support from all of us - but that does not mean we need to put all of our eggs in one basket.

If we can open up other fronts, such as through specific linguistic, cultural and religious organisations whilst having it co-ordinated and in conjunction with the efforts of Vinozito (under their auspices and guidance) then we can reach out to many more people, including those who are not interested in politics and as such pigeon-hole vinozito into the category of 'Political organisation'.

Vinozito is doing a fantastic job and I could not be more proud of them! It is unfortunate how they're being treated by the Greek Government and society, but it's also unfortunate that everything falls on them - right now it's like the Greek Government and society have only one target an that's Vinozito.

Can't we give them more targets and dilute the Greek Government's efforts, thus opening more gaps for Vinozito to explore?


BUT, with all that said - before we begin considering all of the above, we need to help Vinozito become what it is supposed to be and as strong as it needs to be, in order for us to consider other options, because right now all we have is Vinozito and we need to stand behind it whole-heartedly, financially, intellectually (ideas, etc) and physically (ground work, lobby, etc).

I am yet to change my opinion that Vinozhito is almost totally irrelevant for the Macedonians of greece (in greece). I personally love their work ... but clearly the locals do not. This is not merely a flippant statement, I have spoken with many people that have been very closely affiliated with the organisation. So I therefore question their strategies. Would that be wrong?

It wouldn't be wrong to question any political party's strategies, especially if those strategies aren't connecting with its constituency. Perhaps this is best done in another thread.

patience risto nobody took any notice of green ideas 20 years ago, now even
the auto industry is jumping on to the band wagon, ideas can germinate for along time and then bloom madly and quickly.

vinozhito is still a little candle in the night, remember the song from little things big things grow.

i agree with maknews constructive criticism of their strategy is always important and positive.

Risto the Great, you are right, for Macedonians in Greece Vinozito is irrelevant. Most of them cannot understand why an ethnic Macedonian Party is always present in Brussels but never in Voden, Kostur, Negush, Solun (and the villages). The Party is left with very few members and fewer activists. The Party is doing his job as they think is best and the people here are judging them. When I asked them, why you do not activate the HOME OF MACEDONIAN CULTURE they said it is better to continue the legal fights in the Courts and bring this case again to the EHRC. People cannot understand this. They get a wrong meaning (going to Court it means to wait at least 10 years to get the verdict. People are tired to wait for solutions!). The Association of HOME OF MACEDONIAN CULTURE could be active even illegally and see if the Greeks Authorities will have the guts to close it (the same thing are doing the Turks in Western Thrace. Their Association is functioning though it is illegal and the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs visited it during his last visit in Greece). "If we do not break eggs, we will not eat omelet", they say here!
The proposal for a book written in Voden dialect had a very negative response from the Party and the person who made the proposal had to resign.

How would you like to see them? Do you want to see them in person, on television, on the radio? I understand their media access is restricted and many places won’t rent them space out of fear of harassment.


Maybe you are right, after a century of persecution at the hands of the Greek speaking immigrants perhaps it’s time to break a few eggs and make some Macedonian omelettes.


Do you need Vinozhito’s approval for this? Why not just go ahead and publish the book?

Hi Vodenka,
It would have been great to catch up with you when I was there 2 weeks ago. Welcome to the forum.

Everyone who has had former ties with Vinozhito has left them completely disillusioned. They need to capture the imagination of their constituents. The Macedonian identity in Egej is H U G E, I have noticed a swelling pride that I did not think was possible 3 years ago. I have had to accept the Macedonians from Egej have had very different experiences to those of RoM. But am more than impressed and confident that they can be brought back to the "good side". I know I am doing my best in this regard. One by one if I have to.

Za mnogu godini

Um...how about Vinzhito lobby for Macedonian television channels from the Republic?

Knock out many birds with one stone.

Greece won't give them a license for a radio station and restricts their media access (television, print) you think they're going to be allowed Macedonian television?

There is also a large propaganda campaign against them which paints them as irridentists and 'Skopiani.' Skopiani is a racist term that garbage Greeks use to refer to Macedonians.

Bottom line, though, if they can't connect with people then they need to change their policies and do things differently.

Thats what Strassburg is for.

"Skopiani is a term which all "greeks" refer to us.