This suggestion is based on the idea that Scotland is now implementing (see article below).

I think something like this would be great for Macedonia and particularly great for the Macedonians in the Diaspora who can visit Macedonia and then find out all they can about their family history, all from one place.

More than that, by giving them the chance of finding their roots going back (potentially) centuries, it will also help re-iterate the importance of our history, identity and cultural heritage as Macedonians and may help lift the pride in who we are and our name. It could do a lot.

Since the Turkish Archives have now been opened to Macedonians, this project is now feasible. All it takes is an investment in digitalising and translating the information in the Turkish archives.

See the article below for Scotland's initiative:


Scotland to lure back diaspora
25 February, 2008

EDINBURGH - Scotland has long attracted crowds of tourists drawn by golf and whisky, but now the new government, which wants independence from London, says it is giving the sector a higher priority.

There is a strong emphasis on appealing to Scotland's diaspora through projects such as a family history complex in Edinburgh which aims to entice more foreigners to visit Scotland to research their Celtic roots.

The Scotland's People Centre will allow visitors to access well over 60 million records of births, deaths, marriages, wills, land ownership and coats of arms dating back to 1553, under one grandly domed roof for the first time.

It should open in June and organisers hope it will appeal to overseas visitors from countries such as the United States, Canada and Australia, to which Scots have historically migrated.

Another example is Homecoming Scotland, a year-long program of events in 2009 to mark the 250th anniversary of national poet Robert Burns's birth targeted at the diaspora.

The projects were planned before the election last year of the pro-independence Scottish National Party (SNP), but highlight the kind of event it is backing as it bids to show Scotland can stand on its own two feet economically.

Tourism Minister Jim Mather told AFP that he saw the sector not only as a way of boosting the economy, but also of raising the world profile of this country of five million people - and even enticing some Scots in exile to move home.

The tourism sector "has to become bigger" as the nation considers a possible move towards independence, he added.

"Tourism has an importance beyond its direct economic impact," he said.

It is "essentially our advertising voice to the world, our empathetic connection to the world, our ability to bring back the Scots diaspora - 29 million people out there - getting them to consider buying more Scottish produce, coming back for further visits, buying a home in Scotland, investing in Scotland, coming back to Scotland full-time."

The government is consulting on plans to extend devolution to full independence. Polls suggest Scots are in favour of more powers for Scotland, with some going further and indicating majority support for independence.

"This is a fantastic time for Scotland because things are changing," Mather added. "There is a mood of can-do coming through."

But not all of the government's efforts to promote tourism - a sector worth STG4 billion ($A8.55 billion) and providing nine per cent of all Scottish jobs in 2006 - have met with universal approval.

Plans by United States tycoon Donald Trump to build a huge golf complex near Aberdeen, in northern Scotland, were vetoed by local councillors last year amid opposition from environmental campaigners and some residents.

Amid concern about the negative signal this could send to foreign investors, the decision was called in for review by Edinburgh, which is expected to rule on whether it can go ahead in the coming months.

The main opposition Labour party also criticised the government after it unveiled a new STG125,000 ($A267,000) slogan for the country, "Welcome to Scotland", last year, accusing it of lacking imagination.

Professor John Lennon, director of the Moffat centre for travel and tourism business development at Glasgow Caledonian University and a government adviser on tourism, said the sector was now getting a higher priority.

Scotland aims to increase tourism revenues by 50 per cent by 2015, he said, in a target set in 2006 under the previous administration.

And officials were beginning to "major up" their focus on heritage and family history, he added.

"The idea that you appeal to the ethnic communities outside Scotland...that's a very strong latent market that Ireland has been very good at tapping into," he told AFP.

"This crowd are saying it's important, (we) need to understand how competitive it is."

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/tr ... 93225.html

I wonder how useful the Turkish archive would be to such a project...I never thought the Turks were record keepers of any significance, one only needs to see how little architectural legacy was left behind after 500 years of their reign to convince me that those useless bastards would have recorded jack-shit...

The Turks have two eras of History, Before Kemal Mustafa Ataturk and after. Most of the children learn about Ataturk they dont know too much about what happened before then.

The Ottomans were very good at keeping records, when it involved knowing money, including who pays tax to them, etc.

Which is why their archives are very much related to this, as they hold information on people like names, siblings, parents, land titles and so on, going back centuries.

My family's history has been traced back 400+ years. We have a family tree which we organised and recorded with my Grandfather who died at the age of 92 and had knowledge and documents of our family... Dedo Trpe was the first forefather and ancestor we could trace back furthest. Dad's village in Ohirdsko just discovered tombs near buy an old ruined Monastery dated as far back as the VI century AD. Possibly some ancestors there??? I think we are going to call on Pasco Kuzman soon to explore the area and see what he comes up with.

I think the real records for what you seek Rogi would be found in church archives and knowing the destructive nature of the church 'industry' regarding Macedonians I reckon your quest is doomed...too much of Macedonia's family history has been past on in oral fashion only...

We hear alot about these Turkish archives...I wonder what 'secrets' if any they hold hidden...

Hmm, I didn't really think about the Church archives, although I suppose you're right as they'd have to keep some records on Marriages, Christenings and so on... I'm not sure what kind of records they have, particularly since the Church was not exactly 'ours' after 1767.

But if we can collate Turkish archives, Church records and whatever else we can get our hands on, then digitalise it all, put it in a database and index it then build a nice 'geneology' building (like a modern library) in Skopje.

It would be much like a library with a whole bunch of computers and surrounded by history books of the Ottoman and perhaps Byzantine time periods, relating to Macedonia where Macedonians can research their family history.

A family-history research centre (or library) where Macedonians can build their family trees, work out where their families have migrated to and from over the last few centuries, what their names and surnames were, what land titles they owned and even when they died and how... that would be fantastic. It would surely create a much larger interest in Macedonian history amongst a great number of Macedonians as well as help create a pride about being Macedonian.

At the very least, it would help so many Macedonians understand that we have what their forefathers didn't have but always dreamt of, a free Macedonia (well, part of it) and that might help them see the importance of keeping our name, culture, identity and securing our country.

I'd travel to Macedonia specifically for that.

Hi Rogi

As far as I know, almost all of those Church archives were destroyed by no other than our southern neighbor.

The abolition of the church was initiated by the Constantinople Patriarch (Samuil Handzheri 1763–1768), and un-canonically administered by a Muslim ruler. Playing into each other’s hands, the Ottoman Turks and Greeks developed a long-standing relationship under which the Sultan could never have crushed the heart out of his Christian subjects without the aid of a Christian middleman, and the "Greek used the brute force of his Mohammedan employer to compliment his own cleverness and guile", G.M. Mackenzie and A.P. Irby, The Slavonic Provinces of Turkey in Europe, London 1866, p. 29.

"The abolition of the Macedonian Archbishopric of Ohrid emerged from political manouvering, and was motivated by a desire to strengthen the position of the Patriarchate in non-Greek territories under Ottoman rule", C. Eliot, Turkey in Europe, London, 1965 (1900) p. 251. Furthermore, "the Macedonian church was annexed to the Patriarchate of Constantinople, which took ecclesiastical control of Macedonia and, in place of native Bishops of one interest with the people, Greeks were sent from Constantinople", G.M. Mackenzie and A.P. Irby, The Slavonic Provinces of Turkey in Europe, London 1866, p. 29.

According to Eliot, Greek bishops and metropolitans reinforced Greek religious domination in Macedonia by attempting to wipe out traces of the Macedonian character of the Archbishopric of Ohrid. They set upon destroying centuries-old books, records and religious texts and often replaced Macedonian church inscriptions with Greek. In monasteries on the Holy Mountain of Sveta Gora, "the Greek clergy acted drastically, throwing old Macedonian parchments into the sea or burning them in furnaces, and at the Monastery of Saint Naum on Lake Ohrid, the Greek prior Dionysius burned the manuscripts. In Prilep there was a burning of the religious books, whilst the books stored at Veles were destroyed in a bonfire in the marketplace under the orders of the Greek bishop. As much as 300 kilograms of parchments and religious books belonging to the Ohrid Archbishopric were gone forever", Macedonia - Its People and History, The Pensylvannia State University Press, 1982, p. 108. The library of the Patriachs of Trnovo in Bulgaria, although surviving significantly longer, was destroyed by fire in 1825 at the hands of the Greek Metropolitan Hilarion, The journalist, J.D. Bourchier, The Balkan States - Their Attitude Towards the Macedonian Question, New York, 1905, p. 52.

Where do you think Cari Grad is located now?

Theres alot going on that we still dont know about, all the major archives are in Turkey and the good news is they are prepared to share them with us.

Why was this moved from the 'Suggestions' forum?

Because it's an interesting idea and needs to be seen by more people.

So true. The Ottomans were meticulous record keepers - but their best records are of Greece, Macedonia and Serbia. Especially Macedonia, because they used Macedonia as a base for Western expansion - so they needed to everything about everybody in Macedonia.

As did the Serbs.

Ok I haven't ever quoted myself haha but I have just had word from my dad that we have a book which has been officially published for the people who come from the Debarca region (Ohridsko) and how far back the family tree actually is traced. Ill try get my hands on it and load it up here soon.

Translating Ottoman Turkish is not the same as translating from Modern Turkish. Ottoman Turkish used a lot of Arabic & Persian words written in the Arabic script.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_language

There is an interesting line I found:



"greek" speaking muslims? hmmmm where did all those greek-speaking muslims go after 1923?

This is an excellent idea and one that I am very interested in!

I have been thinking about putting together a Family Tree for quite some time because I want to know how far back I can trace my lineage but have had a lot of difficulties.